To all you....

Hammer · Post by **Hammer** » 20 Oct 2008, 20:28

"employs the vernacular of educators" - dude, a education 'professional' wrote that for him.

while neither candidate seems good on anything, ther is no way i will vote for anyone that will diminish the effectiveness of the 2nd amendment or has the crooks from the fannie mac debacle of the late 90's working for him as financial advisors.

and DA has a great point. they are elitists all and don't give a rats ass about the rest of us - only their peers or those that could effect them directly. and i think most of you know it does not really matter who we vote for. we don't really pick. it is the elitist electoral college that does.

PanzerMeyer · Post by **PanzerMeyer** » 21 Oct 2008, 05:30

Steel wrote: it is the elitist electoral college that does.

Well the Founding Fathers felt that having an electoral college was a good idea because they knew from the start that direct representative democracy is subject to the whim and fickleness of the masses. Maybe what CAN be improved is the type of people who are appointed to the electoral college. Perhaps make it consist of more "every day" people?

Hammer · Post by **Hammer** » 21 Oct 2008, 20:58

we have no need of the electoral college any longer. the 'whim of the masses' is exactly what democracy is about.

PanzerMeyer · Post by **PanzerMeyer** » 22 Oct 2008, 05:15

Steel wrote:we have no need of the electoral college any longer. the 'whim of the masses' is exactly what democracy is about.

Really? And why is there no longer a need for the electoral college? What insight do you have which Jefferson, Adams, Hamilton and Franklin didn't have?

And besides, the masses DO have their say and influence via Congress since we can vote directly for Senators and Reps.

I am not a Constitutional revisionist and just like how the 2nd Amendment is still very relevant to today's society and should not be open to "modern revisionism", the same goes for the Electoral College.

Buffalo Six · Post by **Buffalo Six** » 22 Oct 2008, 06:02

I think Steel was being "ironic"

PanzerMeyer · Post by **PanzerMeyer** » 22 Oct 2008, 06:03

Buffalo Six wrote:I think Steel was being "ironic"

LOL Probably so. I'm still half asleep and drinking my second cup of coffee so please be understanding.

Grifter · Post by **Grifter** » 22 Oct 2008, 16:07

Steel,

The fact that Obama has a guy on his staff is savvy on my field's vocabulary doesn't mean he won't follow through on his claims. If anything, it means he knows who is supporters are and what they expect of him, and that he will most likely work with department of education to revise NCLB and other educational policies. I see nothing from McCain to suggest that he will do the same. So, while I respect your concern over the 2nd ammendment, I have to vote for the guy who is at least making the claim to do something about educational policy. Still, I must concede that I agree with your perspective about our influence on national politics. I guess I'll just cast my vote and keep my fingers crossed.

Jedi Master · Post by **Jedi Master** » 22 Oct 2008, 17:09

Watching these campaign speeches on TV I'm just sick of the blatant pandering to whomever they're speaking to at the time, even if what they say 100% contradicts what they said at a rally the week before!
As the saying go, you can tell when a politician is lying when his lips are moving.
That's why you can only go on what they've done in the past, not what they've said, because they've proven they'll say anything.

Hammer · Post by **Hammer** » 22 Oct 2008, 19:31

well actually, we have no need to the electoral college becasue it was created under the guise of being unable to count the votes of the disparate regions on the US in that day ad age. that excuse is gone now. we can easily count individual votes for all states except Florida.

so no need to the electoral college any longer.

in actuality it was created as an elitist group because the 'common' person at the time was just a laperson and could not comprehend the issues not fopr whom to vote. that is elitist in itself. how many of you think that it still aplies or ever should have?

so we have no need for the electoral college. ;)

2nd amendment is critical folks. erode that and the rest of the rights are easily down the tubes. the rest of the stuff probably does not matter one bit who you vote for in all reality.

look at history and what gov'ts have taken away the citizens ability to defend themselves. the pattern repeats itself.

Grif,
i made that comment because you said you liked his platform better because he spoke/wrote in your professions vernacular. bah freakin' humbug i say. i could speak/write in your professions vernacular by spending a little time researching, and i could definitely hire an education 'professional' to do it for me.

Gator · Post by **Gator** » 23 Oct 2008, 14:51

Steel - but what does it say about mccain that he doesn't even take that small effort at research. He's not making that effort at the small things ...

Grifter · Post by **Grifter** » 23 Oct 2008, 15:26

Steel,

Gator is getting at what I'm saying. I'm not saying Obama's a genuine expert on Education, but I see more effort on his campaign's part. And, given the way things are, I have to go with that. I have disagree with you on the point that it doesn't matter who we elect to office. I think the platforms, albeit they are rather flimsy, speak to where and the candidates will focus their efforts upon taking the office. In regards to education, I like Obama's approach better, and as an educator I can speak to the fact that NCLB policy is not working; in fact, it's actually hurting education. Obama says he will work with educators to revise the policy...that's appealing to me. Again, I don't get that impression from McCain. I respect the fact that you feel compelled to vote for McCain to protect the second ammendment, it is indeed very important. But so is education...and for me..so is putting food on the table. If McCain gets into office, I get another 4 to 8 years of fighting uphill battles that simply should not be fought.

Hammer · Post by **Hammer** » 23 Oct 2008, 20:00

the position of president is not a details position. never will be except for the fire drill of the moment.

don't they all say they will do a lot, and does it really happen?

PanzerMeyer · Post by **PanzerMeyer** » 23 Oct 2008, 20:05

Well, a President is obviously not a dictator so I dont understand why people expect presidential candidates to PROMISE they will do something. They cant promise anything since Congress makes and passes laws, not the President.

Grifter · Post by **Grifter** » 24 Oct 2008, 15:24

President Bush said he would "reform" education....he did.

PanzerMeyer · Post by **PanzerMeyer** » 24 Oct 2008, 21:30

Grifter wrote:President Bush said he would "reform" education....he did.

He still required the backing of Congress to get that passed. I dont think it would have passed had there not been a Republican majority at the time.

Falker · Post by **Falker** » 24 Oct 2008, 22:06

You guys should not talk about controversial subjects. It will only separate you. No matter how hard you try to stress your point of view it won’t matter . Whether you’re a democrat or a republican , it won’t work because the other person is already born and raised that way. It’s like trying to tell a Sunni or Shiite that everything is created equal.

Only the open minded like Gator and maybe a few others can see both sides of view. I don’t care for either candidate either. It’s a poor choice. I would like to see the day when we vote in a Half Black , Half Mexican Woman for President. That should make allot of people happy. Then we would be able to move on and dot a few I’s ,.. cross a few T’s .

PanzerMeyer · Post by **PanzerMeyer** » 25 Oct 2008, 05:32

Falker wrote: Whether youâ€™re a democrat or a republican , it wonâ€™t work because the other person is already born and raised that way. Itâ€™s like trying to tell a Sunni or Shiite that everything is created equal.

Well not really. There is a significant portion of the American electorate which consists of independent voters who have a track record of voting for candidates from both parties. Those are the ones that Obama and McCain are going after with a passion. And while I am a registered Republican I am not blind to contrary points of view. My main concern is to see if a person can back up their point of view with a convincing arguement.

Grifter · Post by **Grifter** » 25 Oct 2008, 09:20

Exactly Panzer. We're all adults here and while we will inevitably disagree politically, clearly we can do so respectfully. The issues we're discussing are important ones and the key is to have an open mind and to challenge our own fundamental beliefs. I agree with some of what Panzer and Steel have said here, and it is that willingness to accept the validity of others that makes this conversation possible and valuable.

Panzer:

Yes, the Congress must approve his plan and they were Republican. Nevertheless, it was his cabinet that proposed that plan and it was a Republican Congress that approved it. Clearly, the Republican party has a different view on education...one that I firmly believe is incorrect in its strategy and ideology. Therefore, I cannot vote for another Republican president at this time. However, I'm not opposed to the idea in the future as the politics of this nation are constantly changing and in need of different approaches in leadership now and again.

daofcmacg · Post by **daofcmacg** » 27 Oct 2008, 12:45

I am glad that I can strike up such a calm but effective way of communication. I learned alot just from reading the posts that you guys put up. Makes me proud to call myself an American!!!!! Guy's no matter what happens on Nov. 4th you can all say that history [font=Andalus]TRUE HISTORY HAPPENED HERE IN AMERICA, THIS GREAT ASS NATION!!!!!!!!!!![/font] (once you get rid of the politicians)

Sad isn't IT!

DA

PanzerMeyer · Post by **PanzerMeyer** » 27 Oct 2008, 13:43

@ DA -

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