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For some time now, many of us have been busy with new jobs, school, marriage or some other RL responsibility that simply takes precedence over gaming. In fairness, many of us have also been pursuing other interests such as recreational sports, television shows, or games other than military sims. Naturally, there is nothing wrong with any of these changes as they are natural and common in gaming groups such as ours.

However, some of us would like to reestablish, at least in part, what this group used to be; that is, a military sim group that strived for realism. Of course, it should be noted that Panz, Jedi, Veg, and myself all agreed that we don't want to play so realistically that it is more like a job than a game, but we do believe that using real-life tactics and working as a cohesive unit in the air and on the ground added a great deal to our gaming experience. We want some of that experience back. We recognize that it is unlikely that we shall ever be active as we once were; for many us, life has simply gotten too busy for that happen. Still, we would like to see one or two nights dedicated to realistic military simming again.

I myself would be very interested in hearing ideas from folks about how we might revitalize WOF's involvement in military simming. Some of the ideas that we bounced around last night were:

1. Solicit the group to find out what military sims we still have an interest in playing.

2. Continue our search for new, realistic sims.

3. Having dedicated nights to one or two military sims so that people know when they show up that we will be playing them. Perhaps the eveing is split between air and ground or we have two seperate nights depending on preference of the group.

4. Employing real-life tactics. We've really gotten away from using tactics for many good reasons, but it is more fun to use them (even if you do know the maps by heart.)

5. Veg and Jedi suggested that we have a retro evening, perhaps once a month. Basic installs with minimum add-ons of games like the original Ghost Recon or some of our other favorites from years past.

6. Recruiting. Recruiting is always a double-edged sword and its important that if we do actively recruit we don't waste time on people that may ultimately go somewhere else.

Perhaps there is no interest in revitalizing WOF's military sim roots, and if so that's fine. No one here expects people to do something they don't want to do. But, I have a feeling that most of us here do want to recapture that spark. Any comments or suggestions, please do voice them here; this is a vital topic of interest for WOF, and I'm hoping to see everyone chime in.

-Grifter

Whoa...not everyone at once!

I don't have much to add since most of what I thought has been distilled down into what Grif posted. As for the opinion that "most of us here do want to recapture that spark", I can't say I really believe that.

Ditto what Jedi said.

well, i have been absent for a few reasons... really busy with work, you guys are usually done playing before i get home, and i tired of the type of play that was occurring - run and gun, loner, stereotypical fps style. applies in IL2 as well...folks just flying off on their own and not staying in formations, covering, etc. so i have not really touched much except steel beasts ppe and combat mission shock force and nwn2. i would like to get the old style of play back again, but i just do not know how much time i can commit. i would love to be able to participate when time permits though.

Same here Steel and Grif, but with my plans for this year, the dedication I would LOVE to have to master the craft of Falcon4AF would be a str8 nightmare.

DA

First off, I have not been able to get online for the last few days, so I have not read this post until tonight. Sorry I didn't respond fast enough, but I had other priorities to attend to.

Now my two (or three) cents...

I'm kind of in the same boat as Steel. Between work, school, and RL things (Family time, our business, softball games, etc...) I have very little time to get online; much less than I used to.

Right now, it is really not possible for me to dedicate one or two nights of gaming per week (Although I would LOVE to). I will only be able to join when I have the free time. I have been slammed with homework and class projects for school. So, on the nights that I do not have school, I have been working on my seemingly neverending school work.

Recruiting would be good, to fill in the ranks when others (Like me) can't make sessions on a regular basis. The question is, how do we go about doing this? Do we try and grab people from other like-minded web sites that we visit? I know that Jedi, Panzer, Steel, and myself are members of the SIMHQ community, but they already have their own online group going. (Jedi and Panzer are part of that group). One thing we could do is see about joining their sessions, using their Teamspeak server and following their gameplay policies and rules. This will likely merit futher discussion.

I am aware of the issues of the "run and gun" gameplay style that has been occuring, and I have pointed this out to the people doing it when it happens. I am guilty of the "lone-wolfing" it in IL-2, although not on purpose. When the shit hits the fan in a merge, I have a hard enough time staying alive, let alone staying with my wingman. I will admit, I could use some practice in this area, staying with my wingman and such. What's strange is that I don't have this problem in F4:AF.

So, if we really want to get "serious" during our missions, then what we need to do is have some kind of chain of command in place. Assign squad leaders, fireteam leaders, etc... before the mission starts. Whoever is the squad or fireteam leader, they run the tactics and planning for completing the mission, and EVERYONE else follows their commands. Of course the leader should be open to advise or suggestions as to help them make the best possible decision. We will need to have unit discipline, no un-necessary chatter in comms, use proper radio brevity and communication procedures, use proper tactics for maneuvering in the combat zone, get permission from the leader before making any potentially drastic decisions (opening fire while teammates are exposed to enemy fire, running off or moving out of position when you're not supposed to, etc..)

We have all been exposed to this type of unit discipline before, so we should not have any problems using it again. It's up to everyone to police themselves and act appropriately for the mission at hand. Everyone needs to be on the same page for the unit to succeed and complete the mission.

Ok, so that was more like my twenty-five cents, but there you have it.

I pretty much agree with everything that has been posted so far. :-)

I mostly figured that the lack of activity is due to the fact that our group is simply just a lot busier with real life stuff compared to say, 2 or 3 years ago.

so most of what has been said here only reaffirms my supposition that there is a genuine desire to get back to our roots. As I stated in my original post, people are very busy and it is unlikely that we will play as much as we used to; however, that is all the more reason that we the little time we do play together, we try to employ real-life tactics as SB so clearly summarized here.

Of course, all of this needs to be discussed and worked out: who will be team leaders, flight/element leads on a given mission etc. But it boils down to using common sense and exercising good comm discipline. Like SB said, we are all capable of policing ourselves.

I realize its difficult for all of us to schedule one or two nights a week, but perhaps the majority of us can agree on certain evenings and hopefully folks like SB can make them whenever he happens to be free. Perhaps setting up a Falcon 4AF night is where we should start. Then, perhaps as interest goes, we can look into reestablishing a core of mission builders, aggressor squad, etc.

So, what night would most people like to fly Falcon 4AF, using real=life tactics to the best of our ability? M, T,W, TH, F, Sun? I think Thursdays work best for me. What do you guys think?

One final note, and I think this deserves to be reiterated, while most of us here want to get back to our roots, lets not lose sight of the forest for the trees; that is to say, we're here playing as a group to have fun and employing realistic tactics should be part of the fun. If it becomes too much like work, then it won't be fun at all...the key is to have a little bit of balance between the two, and I think a long time ago we had just that. Let's see if we can't get a little of that back now. We've all done it before...so let me know when you guys want to fly Falcon for starters.

I just want to learn how to effectively employ the F-16 in combat first, how about we start there. How about some training missions to get somethin goin here?

DA

Well, in order to do some training missions, we need to establish a night that would be good for everyone to meet up and fly them. Again, I think Thursday is my best night most weeks. But, I'm available Sunday and Mondays most weeks as well. I'm flexible and if one night works better than others for most people here, then we can kind of establish some kind of loose schedule...just like some of us have done with NWN2.

Ok, I forgot to post into this this weekend, between hunting, and house hunting, this weekend was a mess....oh and it was like cold as hell here.

That being said. I sort of stopped flying IL2 because I really dont care for jumping all over the place plane wise. I perfer to pick a plane and master it. I dont care which plane, or which side...just pick one. That and CoH/V and GW take up a lot of time.

I came into flying with yall from a organized squadron. To be honest it burned me out of flying. I mean it was kinda cool but really a lot of crap and ego gets in the way. I mean hell we had mandatory landing and take off proceedures and a TEST to qual to actually fly missions. When PF came out the one of the tests was getting a Corsair off a non-moving carrier with 3000 lbs of bombs on it(I think it was that weight)....in full engine management mode. Then there was landing and tower procedures and navagating with no map symbols on the mini map and having to pass a nav qual in crappy weather by flying just off the compass in a timed event....so, I;m not sure if I want to go thru all that again. I'm not sure anyone here wants to go to that extreme.

In IL2 we tend to airstart, firewall the throttle, and get in a turn fight at the merge. Everyone dies...well mostly....and we start a new one. I kind of gave up trying to do some custom missions for us in IL2 because timing the merge and flight time to combat are hard to figure out when we fly in at WOT. IL2 uses waypoints and times to set stuff, not triggers (which is sooooo much easier) so it limits some flexability for mission design.

I have several programs that are supposed to be able to set up coop fights...I have not been able to get them to work much, but then again I didnt try very hard to make them work. If anyone wants the names of these mission builders I can get them for you and you can google them or the links.

I guess IL2 wise....lets pick a plane and work that out...even if some want to fly fighters and some bombers...thats fine also but lets set some parameters.

Falcon wise, I just have not had the heart to get into that Sim. I have it but its way too tech for me. I have Wings over Nam and I thought I heard someone had made a Korea war mod for that....anyone ever fly this sim...I flew it for 2 sec without actually reading the manual so.....

If peeps want to GR oldschool wise, Yes I still have Lancers 151st mods and some good weapons mods and the Winter stuff for GR on cd's (I think) and if there is interest...I can see about uploading them to the ftp...that is if I remember how

Well, I agree that I think most of us don't want to get that realistic....a bit too much, though I'm sure some of us might. I have to disagree about the skipping around in IL2. Perhaps, you're right and we could set some parameters, but that sim's appeal is that you can fly different a/c. What di did you have in mind for parameters for plane selection? Would you willing to go back to IL2 under certain conditions? What about Falcon 4? You mentioned you want to focus on one a/c and learn to master it. I know Falcon is high-tech but it does offer that distinct opportunity. Ultimately, we're not going to please everyone, but I think we ought to be able to compromise on some of these points.

I still haven't seen anyone suggest nghts they would be available to fly. I guess people are still strongly against scheduling set nights? I see this as a real problem because it will make coordinating flight nights difficult. This is a real busy week for me. Close of the quarter for my students and what not...so I guess I'll go ahead and set up a Falcon night next week. For those intersted, please keep an eye on the Game Time forum for my post.

Buffalo has quite different expectations and desires from IL-2 than I do but that's quite alright! No one is right and no one is wrong. In my opinion though, sticking to one plane all the time in IL-2 would be deathly boring. I like to fly all of the planes and I like to add a lot of variety when playing online which includes flying in different theaters and flying for different countries. As for the realism though, I have no problems at all with taking off and landing. I do have a problem with enabling engine management and overheat because the A.I planes are not subject to the same law of physics that we are.

As far as nights available to fly, I'm pretty much available any night except Monday.

Softball wrote:


So, if we really want to get "serious" during our missions, then what we need to do is have some kind of chain of command in place. Assign squad leaders, fireteam leaders, etc... before the mission starts.

I completely agree with this. When I play Armed Assault with the SimHQ guys, we have one person who is in charge of the mission and then we have leaders of the individual squads. I play with this format every Monday night and I think it works great. Quite frankly, I dont remember us ever playing OFP or ArmA with a set command structure in place so naturally you are going to have stuff like people lone-wolfing it.

by sticking to one plane you get to know that plane and become successful in it. i think sticking to one plane for a series of missions is great. say limit it to 10-20 missions. then select another campaign to fly...

re: IL2. too many of us are unable to land/takeoff to do that, plus the amount of time it takes to fly the mission. it has to do with short attention spans and run and gun mentality or it is too boring to fly that much without combat for several folks here (/looks at Jedi!!! ). i enjoy it, doing the entire mission. flying in a combat arena is much more than just dogfights - although that is where the excitement is. now i am not into all the complex engine management, and typically we have unrealistically turned off engine overheat to allow us to be even with the AI...and we have taken some liberties to make up for not being in a cockpit to give us more situational awareness (icons and enemy on map, etc.). dcg has worked fairly decent in the past for us to set up coop campaigns...and i have put some effort into some of the campaigns i have set up. what if we set up missions in IL2 where Buff and i fly wingies in the same planes all the time and you guys fly whatever against us? ;)

falcon would be fine with me as well...

i really want to play sbppe coop and head to head, i have the two extra licenses...but i may have to go elsewhere to get my fix for that. there are a few weekly games for that coordinated via stealbeasts.com.

i gave up on arma, too much lone wolfing and not cooperating...

i can not commit to any particular night right now. i have work, family and some other personal things i am working through right now.

Again, I can see that arranging for a particular evening may be too tough for many. Sufficed to say that sticking with one plane for a few missions may be acceptable. Having living aggressors in mission is fine too, I'm sure..so perhaps a few us could fly aggressor. Maybe we can fly one plane for five or six missions and then switch. Maybe we can use DCG again even though it does have its problems.

I'll try and choose a Falcon night most people can make and keep my fingers crossed for a good turnout.

Steel, if reestablished good discipline would you be willing to go back to playing Arma? If not, maybe we ought to join Jedi and Panz at Sim HQ on Monday nights since SimHQ does such a good job.

are there specific issues with DCG that you recall? it seemed to work pretty well...

i will try and see if i can make some falcon. still need to program my new hotas for it.

Monday nights are not good for me...and I am just not that interested in Arma any more. but since that seems to be a good idea and easy enough for even one or two folks to go play there - it should work out well. it might be a good way to recruit - wear your tags!

Hmm...I guess I was mis-understood =) I'm saying that ll that crap I did with my old Squadron burned me the heck out. It was too organized and there was a lot of ego involved at times. Now understand that we had several actual pilots in that group with 2 being ex-RAF fighter pilots. It was wonderful to pick their brains over stuff, but in the end a lot of folks started to get pissed with the system. But enough about that.

I understand the greatness of IL2 is the sheer amount of planes to fly. But the jumps from Jet to Italian to bi-plane to something else started to drive me nuts. Sort of a jack of all trades but a master of none type of thing. We flew the Corsair from the time PF came out till we disbanded over 18 months later and your really learn the aircraft, but I admit it can get old.

I understand why we do air starts because some dont have good rudder controls and ground loops or worse is a big problem and lol not many of us survive to land. Thats cool, thats not really a problem although landing a bent bird after a good fight makes you feel pretty good.

Steel, I could do the adversary thing. Might be fun as long as we all dont go head hunting and only going after each other. Might be good to pick a "area" and generate 20 of so missions for that, like germans vs Ruskies and Steel and I can stick to our birds and the others can fly different stuff.
I have not been able to get DCG or any of the other programs like that to actually work for making online coop stuff but if someone can make it work...drop me a line and I can help generate....I have most of them.

Anyone want me to upload any of the Old School GR mods?

I am so looking forward to Ground Branch. This i think will be our tactical shooter that we can all take part in.
http://www.blackfootstudios.com/forums/ ... owforum=13

ArmA drives me nuts and to be honest i really just dont care for it, or its game play style, sorry.

Anyone interested in Battletech? Veg, Tach, Hondo and I have been playing this little java based game for years called MegaMek that is basically table top Battletech on the PC, its pretty fast paced as all the rolls are automated. You move your guys, pick the targets, shoot and read the carnage. We can make it as basic or as advanced as we want (level III anyone) and its tactical. Oh and its free...let me know if there is any interest here....come on you know you want to head shot Veg with a guass rifle.

Ok time for my looney worth of response.

first for me I relay enjoy IL2 but never was trained to work as a group in air combat as I started with everyone motley just gunning it. I do try and stick with people and keep there tails clear sometimes but in the end I end up chasing a plane down that I take off say buffs tail but then another gets on his tail or somethings like that. so a little more unit work to me would be great and working on maybe not the same plane all the time but say pick a set of planes to work on only. So a bunch we all enjoy and just use say those 3-5. going to the extremes buffs unit did also don't sound fun. I am able to take a plane off but landing needs some work still. but sticking together and working as flight lead and wingman would be interesting and a bit more team work to the whole thing.

As for Falcon 4 I had it installed on laptop and tried it several times in a week, when the laptop was formated I have since not installed it. and in all honesty I just don't have the love for that game some of you do, its just not one I am that interested in. But do not ever let me stop you form playing, I got many other games I can go play, you guys want to play I will just do city of heroes or something else. sort of splitting my tie between 2 groups has some advantages

As for a shooter, well GRAW2 is not a bad game, but compared to the original we just don't have the mods and maps/missions of the original. the same missions are dull. If we could find missions packs I would love to spend more time on this game, but in all honesty this game runs smoother and looks better for me then ARMA

As for ARMA its fun but again missions are lacking, you just don't have the missions we all are really looking for or at least none I have seen. Yes some exist but there is very little for smaller groups, almost need 10-15 man teams. If someone can find true missions for this game, please post them up.

Orgional Ghost recon, to be honest this is a game I would LOVE to get into playing again, been a while to the point I don't remember the missions and with the 151st mod and the expansions their are boat loads of missions for us to use. I think this is a great game and even if you don't have it, I believe it can be acquired easily.

BUFF: I have had my online webspace upgraded so more bandwidth and now has 300Gigs of pace so can easily host the files up.

I know also buff you talked about a FPS on the way, can you post a link with details, it was something like the original Ghost recon game.

as for FPS, even I am guilty of run and gun, but in say BF2 thats fine but yes in recon, ARMA and GRAW thats just not passable. Don't think we need to be hard core drill Sargent style gaming but need someone to take change of the unit and say what we are doing and we need to stick together and work together more. I believe we all have the skills to do this we just need to do it, and we have been well lazy here. So say Friday night if we get a few of us we need to just have a leader who leads the group in a mission.

As for time well I am always around as I have no life apparently. But ya several of us are buissey and will get more time once the school season ends as when it started is about when some people not around as much.

As for recruiting thats something you end up gaming with someone and like there attitude invite them over for fun basically.


O and P.S. Talked to Tach last night and he stated he would be interested in some original ghost Recon as well. and bettign Hondo would join us for some.

and sicne buff posted before I did let me post replies to him

YESy post up 151st stuff, I will even host the stuff if needed. but I think this would be a fun game to get a bunch to play

As for Ground Branch, can you post up some websites you have been getitng your details on this one as well as a possible date.

As for megamek, HAHA but your gauss missed me last time
but I am always up for a game of it.

http://megamek.sourceforge.net/idx.php?pg=main thats the link, if you get it get most recent stable version which Tach, Buff Hondo and myself have. but its enough to get your battletech fix for the week