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Hi guys,

It's been a while since we've addressed this concern, but recently we've grown a bit too loose during our missions. People, myself included, flying off rather than coordinating as a team. I wouldn't say that this is consistently true through our mission sessions. I think we start off well enough, but then we lose cohesion as people die and have to respawn, etc. I know it's difficult, especially with our low numbers, but we need to make a more concerted effort to fly as a team to the target and fly as a team to return to base. When we did this more consistently in the past, I would argue we got more enjoyment out of the sim. First of all, our survivability went up significantly, and there is a certain sense of accomplishment and pride that can be gleaned from coordinating with your element and flight groups to realize your assigned goals and bringing your jet safely home. I really feel that we've grown lax in this area and need to get back to it.

To that end, I'm also looking for a volunteer that would be willing to do mission planning on for Wednesday night. Hammer is much too busy to do it these days, and I'm also super busy, especially this summer, but I might be able to help in this regard in the fall.

Hammer has provided a good template for creating mission fragging. You can either do a simple write up on the forums and add helpful pics, or you can use the templates we used to use, which are pretty spiffy if you ask me. Either way, we need someone to do this job because it will provide all players a sense of purpose, a defined primary and secondary role during the night's sorties, and offer all of us more incentive to work together rather than play "Air Quake."

I don't know about you, but again, I much preferred flying one mission well and returning my aircraft to the carrier than flying five missions poorly and never returning to the carrier because I got shot down in each hop. If you're interested in the job of doing the mission write ups, or if a few of you would like to split the job, please contact me or Hammer.

Thanks and looking forward to seeing you all Wednesday night for hopefully a more consistently coordinated evening of kicking enemy AI back to where ever it is they came from!

I Agree with everything in that first paragraph. I haven't been around long but even when we have fought together lately we've done pretty well and it is very rewarding to bring the same bird home - even a few time in the same mission - when we can.

Once a mission starts scattered its tough to get everyone together.

Im in to help do the mission planning. Give me what pointers you can, the template and Ill certainly ask away if I have any questions. Which I probably will. Once I do it a few times I should be okay with understanding the order of things and how the template should be completed.

If anyone else wants to help or give it a go that's cool too...

I agree, and a few weeks ago when we worked together as a package and got through the mission then reformed and came back together was great. Heck, even when Trichome and I flew that deep strike 400 nm round trip, it was jsut us but we stayed together and I shot down bandits to cover his ingress, and on the way back he show down bandits to insure that I landed at Khasab safely. If that wasn't an example of mutual support, I don't know what was.

I also feel that Monday training nights have not really been training nights. They have more been like trying to do the Wednesday night mission under the ruse of training. Back in the day we used to use training nights as a way to brush up on a skill (ie carrier ops) or a weapon, or refueling, or formation flying, etc. It was training, not running off to see if we can take out a side target or rack up a bandit kill list. WE even from time to time flew against each other to keep ourselves sharp in dogfighting. I miss that.

Mission planning--I would love to help out on that but I don't see myself being able to in the next 2 weeks being that I'm getting ready for Poland, then I'm gone. Well, maybe whilst in Poland I can come to think of it. I don't see me being able to fly much so if there is say a recon mission, maybe I can go through and analyze and assign targets etc. Just a thought.

I also thought about learning that ATC program that Xpen was using as I could be AWACS while I'm away, perhaps...

v6,
boNes

Trichome, I will email you a blank ATO template and a completed ATO as a template so you can see what needs to go there.

I see a nagging point in trying to stay together is when one of us die, and everyone is over 70 miles away. It's very hard to rejoin the fight because you have to arm up the jet and then fly to target. By then, someone else has died, or the mission is over. I think we need to get creative to resolve this problem so that people trying to rejoin the fight feel included and still involved in the primary mission so that they don't run off and do their on thing, which leads to group cohesion breaking down. Let's brainstorm some ideas here to see if we can fix this issue. For example, would a rally point over a well known landmark help at all? Or, perhaps respawned pilots check simply check in with their flight leads, or Hammer, or ATC (Xpen/Bones), and ask for tasking?

In regards to Monday nights, Bones, you're absolutely right. We started treated those as causal mission nights just to get some flying in rather than training. As you know, I've personally been using them to learn to fight in the Mirage. I'm more than happy to return to real training on Monday nights, however. I will also be away for most of the summer starting this coming Thursday though. So, with you gone in Poland and I'm gone backpacking, we might not get to do much of this until the fall. But, I'm happy to train Monday night if you guys want. Refueling anyone? We'd need to swap maps/missions so we aren't getting attacked while trying to train.

Trichome, thanks for volunteering! I'll see if I can help a bit in the fall, too. If anyone else in interested in doing an ATO for a mission night in the coming months, don't be shy. It's good experience. Everyone should know how to make an ATO! And hey, it's fun watching us attempt complete the mission you've set up. Just let Hammer or me know you're interested.

Grif.

Good discussion. I'm just a noob to the group so take my thoughts with a grain of salt, well lots of salt.

I'm all for more coordination. This past Wed we started out pretty well and then as it was said, someone gets shot down, restarts on the boat, and then he's flying out to engage while those that survived are egressing back to rearm and refuel. Does he go it alone or just sit on the boat and wait for 15 min?

One idea I had was to put at least two flyable aircraft of what we all fly at Khasab. Its almost a FARP since its so close near the tip of the peninsula and aircraft can get back into the fight quicker. Two of every aircraft we regularly fly: F14B, F18, AV8B, Mirage 2000, F-16, F-15, Mig21. None of us really regularly fly the other Russian aircraft. Thats 14 slots although its a bit limiting if we want a 4-ship section. Maybe the runway length is an issue. I'm not sure. I may be missing one aircraft type in that list.

Another idea is to get the carrier on a shorter circuit. Sometimes it seems to be 30-40 mi further south than the last time I took off and that takes a longer while to get up there to the fight. Could also adjust to a SW to NE circuit.

I like the MI24 at the FARP. I think it can be useful taking out ZSU's from a safe distance if I can get close with the other aircraft doing their thing, distracting the enemy. I coordinated my flights to match the aircraft attacking in the area when I did take it up. It takes a while to get up there and the FARP is pretty much under enemy air cover. I like the added element and I dont really go it alone when I do fly it. I wish the FARP was closer but that wouldn't be realistic.

As for my flights when nobody is on (not on Mon/Wed) I'm usually just really training to probe enemy air defenses, see how the AI react to my presence, and learn weapon systems in whatever aircraft I'm in. I like the "training" aspect of Monday nights but with such limited time we all have to fly together, I'd be fine if that was a regular mission night too or perhaps guidance to "try something new". I'm open to anything really.

As I help run an Arma3 I&A server with zeused side ops on Thurs nights, I don't think I would have the time or brainpower to be creative enough with mission briefings here (and I'm not that good of a writer).

I will be gone last week in July so maybe all of us on vacations will give us time to think of new ideas.

Hey Creeper,

I hear you on brainpower and time. We all do what we can. If I had more time and assuming you had room, I'd join you for ARMA 3 on Thursdays, but I'm too busy for another gaming night.

I really like a few of your ideas for cutting down on the rejoin time! I think adding aircraft at Khasab could really help. Two ought to be fine. It's unlikely that a whole flight of four would be shot down at the same time. If they were, they could just start again together from their original base. I'm not sure there is enough slots at Khasab to hold that many aircraft though. May have to locate some lesser used aircraft to a base slightly further away? Or perhaps, as we advance in the campaign we can take over a base closer to the battle?

I also like the idea of possible putting the carrier on a NE/SW circuit. That may really help with the carrier being so distant on occasion. We probably wan to keep it's circuit thirty to forty miles long, however, because when it turns it fouls up operations.

Definitely having a FARP for chopper action is a great idea. Panzer flies one, so do you. I've flown one briefly in the past, and might again if there was a specific mission set up for it. But, I'm mainly fixed wing.

Anyway, I think these are great ideas that really could alleviate the staggering and allow people to rejoin their flights and fulfill their role on mission nights.

Hopefully, Hammer (I know he doesn't right now) or someone else has time to muck around with the mission editor. But, perhaps soon.

Thanks for the reply and considering my thoughts. I think we all are having fun but always looking for a more enjoyable experience.

The FARP up on that island has helo spots and is 40 mi or so from the nearest enemy base. Its a 10 min flight but not a big deal and forces us to fly low. I'd love a helo partner one night while others fly CAP. There aren't a lot of ground troops I've seen in this scenario yet which would warrant CAS role.

Hammer wrote: ↑

09 Jul 2022, 17:31

Trichome, I will email you a blank ATO template and a completed ATO as a template so you can see what needs to go there.

Sounds good. I'll let you guys know if any questions once I get it and take a peek.

In regards to getting shot down mid mission - I think having aircraft at a closer launch point (or regrouping at original point of T/O if the whole flight gets shot down) or changing the carrier circuit are good suggestions. Cant think of many solutions to this problem to be honest.

Bones and I have a bit of experience playing around with the ME. I dont mind making amendments to the mission file. I.E changing a base to Blue form RED if we "take it over" amend the planes stationed at bases etc.... Hammer - send me that mission file if you'd like. I can make any amendments between Thursday and get the file back to you for Sunday nights at the latest (as an example).

Im not sure how feasible this is - but what if we run TTI on Mondays. Using Zeus we can load into the map only the targets we want to train for on that night to be ready for mission night on Wednesdays. If our mission is PG we run TTI PG on Monday. Im not sure how easy it is to swap maps on the server side though??

Also as far as training goes, Trichome and I were learning the Apache but admittedly it has fallen to the wayside a bit. Maybe a Monday night we can get back into it. IF we are up to speed enough on it, then Creeper will have his helo wingman that he brought up!

Also go ahead and send me the template for missions too. I believe I will have timed in Poland to look it over and maybe do something with it.

Also, the Syria map--wasn't one of the issues we had with Syria the graphical load causing lag? We may have to consider that when using it. Or, be cognizant of it and adjust your settings accordingly.

v6,
boNes

My mouth is watering. Did someone say "Syria map"??????

Xpendable: I will continue to practice in the AV8b. I'm getting better understanding of the bombing. I haven't nailed down the Mavericks yet or the targeting pod but its on my list.

Bones and Trichome the ATO templates have been emailed.

Khasab: there is no more room for additional planes. A-10's and SU-25T's take up 4 slots as Khasab is the closest to the action and they are slower aircraft (the same principal applies to the 3 FARPs i put in for rotary wing). also the runway length might cause issues for some aircraft. also note that if two people spawn into aircraft at Khasab, no more will be able to spawn into those slots until those two players leave those slots. i.e. if 3 Hornets are shot down, only two will be able to spawn into the 2 slots at Khasab (IF the slots were there).

Carrier group: it is already on a SW-NE course for its circuit; i can reduce the length of the circuit but that means more frequent turning. recall when the carrier is turning there is no re-arm/refuel, launch or recovery and maybe no staying on deck. if we do this, you may have to garner some extra patience. i can also slow it down, but that is also not realistic and may affect recoveries.

it does not take me that long to update a mission once i have given it a once over. it took probably 10 minutes total to add the MiG-21s at Khasab including testing after reload on the server to ensure it was still running OK. also, changing the missions on the server is easy. the server is also the master repository for the missions; i always copy the current mission, modify and then upload it back to the server copying over the mission i copied to modify originally (cannot do this while the mission is active, have to change the server to another mission temporarily).

TTI could be used for training. with its zeus functionality it works well for that. Syria gave people some fits early on, but the last couple times we flew it i do not believe there were any issues. yes it might require some changing of settings if that tuning is not already done. it has also been out for a while, so hopefully they have optimized it more.

Hammer, I am pretty sure you CAN add additional spawns to any airport. You are not limited to the built in ones. Instead of setting them to "ramp" in ME, you can add additional ones and set them to takeoff from ground, and manually placing them on the airport. You do need to know where the ramp spawns are so that you don't overlap so nobody spawns on top of another plane (which will obviously blow up both planes). Anyway, we do this on our MVP servers, which have WAY more spawns at each of the airports versus the defaults. We also add tie down tires on these spawns so people know not to park there, but not strictly necessary. Anyway, I think there are places at Khasab where we can squeeze more spawns in.

EDIT: I just did an experiment. I found that I can add AV-8B's anywhere by setting them to "Takeoff from ground hot". I tried some other planes, and they don't have that option. Helicopters and the Harrier do. So I was able to fill up the 14 slots (12 planes and 2 helicopters) and then add a bunch of additional harriers. But I know our MVP team is able to add other spawns for any aircraft - they might be using a mod to do this. I will find out and report back.

2nd EDIT: OK, got it figured out. You have to remember to set the plane to "Client" first, then it will give you the "Takeoff from ground hot" option for ANY plane. I just filled up more than 50+ planes at Khasab and still had room for more.

I wonder if that is a fairly newish feature? how long have you all been doing that? will look as soon as I can.

@Hammer:
Carrier group: Given what you summarized above, I think us Navy ops guys would prefer you leave the carrier fleet as-is then. We don't want a slower moving carrier and we don't want more frequent turning. Instead, if you can't spawn more F/A-18 and 14's at Khasab, then maybe the next available, closest airbase?