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Trichome and I were on late last night and I couldn't get a target lock on a BMP. Super irritating. I imagine that if I played with the contrast and brightness a bit more, the TPod would've been able to see it. But, I was in a rush to finish. I resorted to trying to target lock via the VV, but then I was having problems with the AGM-65F slaving to the VV. I think my problem was procedural. Again, I just wanted the damn thing to work so I could go to bed. Anyway, I was irked by my inability to fire the weapon. I've had problems with the Maverick in the past due to user error, and so I sat down this morning, reviewed the procedure, and then flew out to the test range. Here's a video that demonstrates how to use the VV to lock the general vicinity of a target and slave the maverick to it.

Select VV as SOI
Get the VV over the target as close as you can to your intended target and click the TDC
Select DDI with AGM-65 seeker page displayed
Uncage the weapon and it will slave to the VV.
Wait for the crosshairs to make a solid connection at the center, indicating a lock.
Fire.

I'll have to try that sometime. Did you check if your TPOD was set to FLIR or to TV? IF on TV you would need the contrast but if in FLIR it wouldn't care about the contrast, just the heat. When you turn the TPOD on it defaults to the TV. However, if I use the TPOD to find the target then switch to the MAVF NFD and uncage it I find that the Maverick will slew to it but not lock onto it. Since it is slaved to the TPOD, you can't slew the Maverick and of course to slew the TPOD you have to undesignate so you lose the Maverick slew. If you slew the TPOD again, you are in the same predicament as before. If you undesignate and you switch to the Maverick to slew the seeker, now you are fiddling between TPOD and Maverick screens and trying to get the Maverick to reacquire and lock. Plus when you undesignate the TPOD there is a good chance the Maveriock seeker would go stupid and drift far away and in the time you have it's not enough to correct it.

So I have resorted to using the TPOD to just get the Maverick close, then undesignating and slewing the Maverick as fast as I can to lock. BUt that is too unwieldy. So what I've been doing instead is taking the TPOD out of the equation altogether, caging the Maverick, then uncaging it and slewing it toward where the target areas is and using the Maverick cursor in the HUD, finding the target that way. Works every time but it also means I have to get real close to verify my target, so it's scramble but I get good kills.

I just wish the Maverick really had a black hot white hot. I don't know if it's DCS or RL but what good is a black hot white hot stting if all it does is change your cursor from black to white? Idiotic.

v6,
boNes

Getting that close makes me nervous.... and that was only tanks. If those were a gaggle of ZSUs you would have been destroyed most likely.

I use the JHMCS and the TPOD. Ill post a video later tonight or tomorrow and we can compare. Other than getting to close for comfort that way does seem easier to mange.

U share your frustrations Grifter. In a jet there is just to little time to find, lock the target and fire a mav. Last time I did fly CAS in the f18 I used unguided rockets and was pretty successful. The target pipper in the hud was pretty accurate. This is also one reason why I bomb in ccip mode so often. It's just simpler for me. I do need to learn some more about the various munitions and modes though.

Well, as I said in my video, this is not the preferred method for deploying a maverick. The whole point of the Maverick is NOT to get that close. Bones, I've read over your post here several times, and honestly I don't think I understand how you're using the maverick or exactly why. But, suffice it to say that if you have to get that close, there are better weapons for the job.

My preferred method is using the TPOD. Typically, so long as I'm not forgetting a step, I can get the maverick to slave to the TPOD target. The maverick will lock up once it's able to discriminate the target, and it usually does without issue. The hard part is finding the target in the TPOD. I often rely upon a waypoint WPDSG or I get roughly in the right area with the VV, and then slew the TPOD to that for refining the target. As to the latter, this is where using the JHMCS may really shine. I look forward to Trichome's video on the subject.

Personally, I like using the AGM-65F for certain jobs, as it can be very effective and provide a certain attack profile when used properly. I want to get better at using them because they can really useful in certain situations. But, generally, laser guided and GPS guided bombs, or JSOW-A's are often better choices for both accuracy and stand-off potential, which is why I'm not as practiced using the AGM-65. The bombs simply work better these days.

Well I flew a test mission several times using your method and I must be missing something because whenever I designate with the VV then uncage, the Maverick seeker goes flying off into who knows where. I would fly to the target, TDC up to the HUD (dot is in the VV), put the VV on the target, designate. TDC to the MAverick MFD, uncage, seeker head flies into oblivion. What am I missing?

Now the method I was using with the TPOD I should clarify that I don't do too much anymore because it is too difficult to juggle all of those things in time like I mentioned. But I tried it again and I think I found that the reason why the Maverick isn't locking on to the target I locked in the TPOD is that like you were saying, it isn't discriminating the target enough to lock on. FIrst if I had a target at the waypoint, I would WPDSG. Then I would refine it by slewing the TPOD to the target itself. I would find the target (in this case a SAM) in the TPOD, lock it with PTRK (it was moving), then TDC to the MAVF page and uncage. It would go to the TPOD target but MAVF would still be crossed out even though the point I designated was in range. So hung load. But as I got closer the MAverick did eventually see the target and lock up, and I was able to fire. But of course that meant being closer. Mav's max range is 7.5 nm...so we're already getting pretty close anyway, especially since I was shooting at a SAM. I 'm not convinced it made a difference but using FOV and matching polarity with the TPOD may have helped too.

Also I noticed that if you WPDSG, the TPOD goes to that WP and makes it the target, but if you move the cursor from there to track the target whether in ATRK or PTRK, in the TPOD's mind it should still be looking at WPDSG because that is what is designated. So if you want to track the target either with ATRK or PTRK, you must undesignate from WPDSG. But then the TPOD goes looking elsewhere, either to snowplow or VV, I'm not sure. However, when I use the above method without WPDSG undesignated it seems to work. It makes me question what the MAV is actually looking at when uncaged--WPDSG, or the PTRK/ATRK.

OK, just checked Chuck's guide page 447. It says:

"23. When the Maverick is uncaged and a A/G TGT (air-to-ground target) is designated by the targeting pod, the missile will attempt to lock onto a contrasting target within the designated TGT area. This procedure is much easier to do than trying to slew the missile itself."



I thought I had video but the only footage I had had me shot down (I was attacking an SA-15) before the Mavericks hit. I can post them anyway but it doesn't show too well how I was targetting.

So, to answer your thought on why I would use the TPOD in that way--it is because I can target the targets for the Maverick well ahead of time.

But honestly, the way I've been doing it is by just using the Maverick seeker head. I get nearly 100% kill ratio that way. I concede that it's easier to target because of dot labels, but it works.

And on a side note, the fact that SAMs can shoot down your ordnance so easily is maddening. I found that not only do they shoot down HARMs, SLAM-ERs, and JSOWs, but they also shoot down Mavericks. HOw are you supposed to kill any SAM or SAM protected site I don't know. I even read someone complaining that their bombs were shot down!

v6,
boNes

Here's one video that kinda illustrates what I was doing:



v6,
boNes

On very rare occasions, I've had something similar happen to me due to what I believe was user error; although, I really don't recall exactly what the issue was because the procedure I described above works fairly consistently. Again, bear in mind, I don't use this weapon enough to be absolutely certain.

Even so, I have not found that WPDSG a target with the TPOD and then fine tuning the TPOD's view onto the desired target, selecting PTRK or ATRK causes an issue. When the Maverick MFD is SOI, the AGM-65F seeker head does slew to the TPOD's target (area), not off into oblivion. I'm not sure why that is happening to you on a regular basis. Certainly, it's possible that DCS is flaking out or the enemy ground units are ridiculously ubered to shoot down our ordnance. We know there are problems with this sim, and so I don't dismiss that possibility out of hand. But, I do think that my method works for the most part.

Also, from our combined experiences, I would say that AGM-65 has a place in your ordnance magazine, but it's most effective against certain enemies within certain parameters. For example, I would use the AGM-65 against a tank column, but not against a SAM, and generally not against BMP's and AAA. You have to get too close for it to be safe and practical. For the latter, I would LGB and GPS bombs, JSOW, or SLAM-ER. I have yet to have a SLAMM-ER shot down by a SAM, at least not that I know of. But, again, with DCS it wouldn't surprise me. One of the reasons our AGM-88's don't work well is that we're really meant to use them on, say, an SA-10 site en masse. We should be saturating the target with multiple volleys from multiple aircraft, but again that requires us to have the number of live players in the air since the DCS AI wingman are useless, and generally we are a small group and can't mount those kind of numbers. It's not impossible, but it sure as heck isn't easy.

So, to take this conversation to practical application, if I was working with a weapons' chief and SME while prepping for a mission, I would advocate for the AGM-65's use only in certain scenarios.

The only time the seeker goes into oblivion is when I designate with the VV in the HUD, then TDC to a caged Maverick then uncage. I don’t have it go into oblivion when using the TPOD.

I’ve had SLAM ERs shot down many times before. The general consensus I’ve found lately is yes you need numbers,or TALDs (but then you carry less HARMs). Or you get close with cover and the launch HARMs to get them to turn off the radars, then hit them With Maverick while they are blind.

v6,
boNes

What TPOD are you guys using?

Sorry I haven't had time to make that video. This morning the below popped up on my YouTube feed. This is pretty much what I do (less making the mark point because we usually have a WP already). I'll make mine to but at least you can see what im talking about.

I haven't tried multiple targets in one run though. I'll try that when I get a chance.

I'm using the Litening pod in this case. But, I'm not sure it would change all that much using the ATFLIR? Thanks for posting the vid. I'll take a look when I have a chance. I definitely want to learn how to use the HMD in this application.

Bones, sorry, I meant I don't have problems with the maverick seeker flying off into nowhere with VV or TPOD as SOI. I TDC the target, then switch my SOI to Maverick's MFD. Are you depressing TDC when the Maverick MFD is SOI? Maybe that's what's causing the issue? I don't depress TDC on Maverick page, I don't think. Just uncage.

Here's a test I did early this morning:



Sorry I forgot to set it to record sound but the video is there.

So what I noticed in doing it over and over was that if you select WPDSG the TPOD goes to that point. If you slew the TPOD from there to a moving target and go PTRK, then TDC to the Maverick page, the Maverick automatically uncages and looks at the WPDSG point even though you are in PTRK. This leads me to believe that it slaves only to the last designated point.

Now if I cage it, switch back to the TPOD, and hit TDC depress (which actually turns on Target Offset Mode), then switch back to the Maverick, it does not automatically uncage this time, I have to uncage it. But then it looks at that last point I designated. HOwever, it still does not appear to follow the TPOD target that it is PTRK. So again, I switch back to the TPOD, hit TDC depress again, switch back to the Maverick uncages, and it snaps to that point I designated.

It would appear that I have to do this over and over to "update" where the Maverick looks, but eventually as I get closer, one of those times, the Maverick will discern the target from everything else and then lock on. Then I can fire.

So so far I am seeing that in summary, the TPOD can be targeted where you want it to, and you can designate a target with it, but the Maverick will only see that last designation. It will not follow the PTRK. But everytime you are hitting designate, it is on the PTRK target so the MAverick will look at that point and not the PTRK target but since it is close to the PTRK target, it may actually see it itself and then lock on. So the TPOD is used to tell the Maverick where to look at any period in time, and then it's up to the Mav to target itself.

v6,
boNes

You know, after a few more trials I'm starting to to notice that even though I do things the same way, that the results are inconsistent. Sometimes when you have it in PTRK and then you SCS out it snaps back to the WPDSG. Other times when you do the same thing, it sits at the same point as when you clicked out of PTRK. It seems random.

So it is making me thing more and more that it is another one of those DCS things that they just don't get around to fixing.

v6,
boNes

Probably a DCS thing, yeah. Although depressing TDC before switching to Maverick as SOI makes sense so that the seeker head is looking at the designated target. The AGM 65 is not locked on to the designated target, because the infrared seeker, by design, is looking to discriminate an image that I can latch onto. So depressing TDC simply tells the seeker head where to look. that much makes sense.

So I did my video.....sorry for the delays guys...

I used my WP as a guide on my HSI but didnt WPDSG. I used the JHMCS (HMD) to acquire the target looking out my canopy. the just release the MAVF.

JHMCS on
SOI HUD
Look and target (area) as close as possible to target location and TDC Depress
SOI Right MFD (which has the ATFLIR TPOD)
Move TPOD over target
Fire MAVF when in range

I Didnt target designate using the designated WP....

Grifter wrote: ↑

28 Nov 2022, 09:22

Probably a DCS thing, yeah. Although depressing TDC before switching to Maverick as SOI makes sense so that the seeker head is looking at the designated target. The AGM 65 is not locked on to the designated target, because the infrared seeker, by design, is looking to discriminate an image that I can latch onto. So depressing TDC simply tells the seeker head where to look. that much makes sense.

Yes. Thing is I've been told that once it is in ATRK or PTRK, the target is automatically designated so no TDC press is needed. And, if it is designated, then the Maverick seeker head should follow that designation. But it doesn't. So I doubt that, at least in terms of the Maverick, that ATRK and PTRK automatically designate.

Also, in a test, I had a target in PTRK mode, and when I switched to the MAV MFD and clicked uncage it looked at one spot, then when I switched back to the TPOD MFD then back to the MAV MFD it shifted its view. It seems like the Mav will look at the target spot in the TPOD only at the moment that you switch back to the Mav MFD, where at that split second the target has already moved. But then you can get lucky and it can catch its IR signature and lock it.

I guess the way to prove that ATRK and PTRK automatically designate is to lock a target with either and then drop a GBU LGB on it and see if it tracks. This is different from the usual find a target, TDC on it, then drop the GBU.

v6,
boNes

Also, in a test, I had a target in PTRK mode, and when I switched to the MAV MFD and clicked uncage it looked at one spot, then when I switched back to the TPOD MFD then back to the MAV MFD it shifted its view. It seems like the Mav will look at the target spot in the TPOD only at the moment that you switch back to the Mav MFD, where at that split second the target has already moved. But then you can get lucky and it can catch its IR signature and lock it.

So you're saying as your geometry to the target, which is stationary, changes, the mav's seeker head is not slewing to the exact center of the PTRK or ATRK? Repeating the process you describe above results in the Mav's seeker looking at slightly different points instead of returning the same point? I assume, as you say, that it is close enough that the Mav's seeker has a chance to detect an IR signature and lock it. But, it sounds like your luck with it doing so is really dodgy.

I guess the way to prove that ATRK and PTRK automatically designate is to lock a target with either and then drop a GBU LGB on it and see if it tracks. This is different from the usual find a target, TDC on it, then drop the GBU.

My experience with doing what you describe above results in my bombs missing the target. TDC depress is definitely required when dropping an LGB.

I was trying on stationary targets and now I understand what Bones was trying to say.

I think - because the targets are moving, if you slew the TPOD and then SOI MAVF and uncage the moving target is no longer there for the seeker to see.
I haven't tested this.. will do though.

Yeah the procedure for using Mavs on moving targets, I think, is a bit different. You probably want to place the TPOD ahead of the moving targets, say a tank column on the move, and then make the Mav's MFD SOI. Uncage it when the tank column comes into picture and it ought to be lock onto one of the tanks? Haven't tried it.