I just had to get this off my chest!!! No offence to you guys!
WHY is it that with all the top of the range technology and training US Forces have with target identification Friend or Foe signals, Fixed Safety corridors that a US Patriot missile system still manages to track, lock onto and fire on a RAF TORNADO returning from a mission in IRAQ destroying the Tornado and Killing the crew only 4 minutes from Landing!!!!!!!
I know mistakes happen in war situations but this type of error has really got my temper going. To mistake a Tornado for a SCUD missile is down right incompetent in my opinion. Its all very well us shooting each other down in F4 and JF-18 as it can be laughed of as a bit off fun but when this happens in real life resulting in the death of 2 crewmen that are based not far from me, i get pissed!!
Rant finished sorry to go off like this but i really think that this is something that should never have happened!! and it's not the first time US Forces have killed British Troops under FRIENDLY FIRE situations.
Nemisis
Rant
Moderator: RLG MGMT Team
Nemesis,
It definitely comes across as offensive and targeted at Americans/US troops. It upsets me as much as you, and I can guarantee that Patriot battery crew is having a very difficult time doing their job right now.
Also, if you know weapon systems, the Patriot is an air defense system - period. That means missiles and planes. Their targets do not have to be SCUD missiles...so I seriously doubt the plane was mistaken for a SCUD missile - just an unidentified (to them) air target.
I also HIGHLY doubt US troops make it a habit of targeting British troops/equipment in wars, as you have inferred ('not the first time') - unless you were referring to the Revolutionary War or the War of 1812 in which cases it was on purpose... At least when I was in the Army we did not go around looking for opportunites to nail them Brits... The British forces were highly respected as comrades in arms.
I actually think there have been MORE British deaths from their own mistakes (two British Navy helis colliding and killing 7) than from mistakes of US troops... Did you make the same rant about that? In fact, a US soldier was killed in that crash...no one is going off about that and blaming British Navy pilots for their incompetence!
This is a bad rat hole to go down. Let's not do so... The fact is their will be friendly casualties, especially when integrating two nations armed forces. There will be equipment malfunctions, I.D. mistakes, etc. It is a fact of war, however tragic.
It definitely comes across as offensive and targeted at Americans/US troops. It upsets me as much as you, and I can guarantee that Patriot battery crew is having a very difficult time doing their job right now.
Also, if you know weapon systems, the Patriot is an air defense system - period. That means missiles and planes. Their targets do not have to be SCUD missiles...so I seriously doubt the plane was mistaken for a SCUD missile - just an unidentified (to them) air target.
I also HIGHLY doubt US troops make it a habit of targeting British troops/equipment in wars, as you have inferred ('not the first time') - unless you were referring to the Revolutionary War or the War of 1812 in which cases it was on purpose... At least when I was in the Army we did not go around looking for opportunites to nail them Brits... The British forces were highly respected as comrades in arms.
I actually think there have been MORE British deaths from their own mistakes (two British Navy helis colliding and killing 7) than from mistakes of US troops... Did you make the same rant about that? In fact, a US soldier was killed in that crash...no one is going off about that and blaming British Navy pilots for their incompetence!
This is a bad rat hole to go down. Let's not do so... The fact is their will be friendly casualties, especially when integrating two nations armed forces. There will be equipment malfunctions, I.D. mistakes, etc. It is a fact of war, however tragic.
Last edited by Hammer on 24 Mar 2003, 09:21, edited 2 times in total.
Helmut
There is much I could say here, but won't. Why? Because some would mis-construe my every word, others would take it wrongly, and I am not prepared to start a war of words because of my opinion. Instead I will state, for the record, a simple fact:
In the fog of war, many decisions are made in the blink of an eye - because they have to be. Sooner or later a mistake will be made and people will die.
Nemisis, nobody deliberately kills a friendly sad as it is.
In the fog of war, many decisions are made in the blink of an eye - because they have to be. Sooner or later a mistake will be made and people will die.
Nemisis, nobody deliberately kills a friendly sad as it is.
It is not the technique that wins a fight, but the more furious mind - Kodiak WOF
You are stuck on stupid. I'm not going to answer that question! - Gen Honore, New Orleans Sep 05
You are stuck on stupid. I'm not going to answer that question! - Gen Honore, New Orleans Sep 05
While I understand Kodiak's good intentions not to offend anyone here, or bash the United States military, it is clear that he's not speaking his mind. I don't blame him given that most of us here are American. I'm not a mind reader and I'm not sure what Kodiak would've said, but I do have a few comments of my own to make.
To be sure, any number of technological failures on either side, British or US, could've have caused this tragic accident. By the sounds of it, technical malfunction is the culprit here. However, humans are, if not more unrealiable than machines. In the past, human error has been a factor in friendly fire, perhaps more so than the technology being used. And what of that? Does one mishap in a soldier's career make them incompetent or just plain unlucky? Kodiak, Steele, and others were correct to point out that in the fog of war, especially in today's fire and forget version of it, these sort of tragic mistakes happen and will continue to occur. It's one of the terrible prices we pay to wage wars we don't want to fight in the first place. Human beings, whether they fly a British or US flag over their heads, make mistakes that they, unfortunately, must live with.
That said, it's not unrealistic to assume that some folks in the US military are incompetent; in fact, I'm sure that a few of you have some horror stories to tell. No, the US military is not without incompetence, but it's important to remember that the US military does it's very best to train highly motivated, highly intelligent individuals to perform difficult jobs under difficult circumstances. These tragedies are simply inevitable, but thanks to training and technology, they are far less frequent than they would be otherwise. Certainly, with all the sorties flown and the ground covered during this war it's amazing we do not hear of more mishaps.
In closing, I would like to extend my personal respect and condolescences to the families of those British pilots lost to friendly fire. I salute them for their service to the United Kingdom and the coalition efforts in Iraq to preserve freedom from tyranny and terror. It is with gratitude that I thank all those who serve in the British and United States military, and bow my head in prayer for those who have made the ultimate sacrifice.
Sincerely,
Vincent C. Palmieri
To be sure, any number of technological failures on either side, British or US, could've have caused this tragic accident. By the sounds of it, technical malfunction is the culprit here. However, humans are, if not more unrealiable than machines. In the past, human error has been a factor in friendly fire, perhaps more so than the technology being used. And what of that? Does one mishap in a soldier's career make them incompetent or just plain unlucky? Kodiak, Steele, and others were correct to point out that in the fog of war, especially in today's fire and forget version of it, these sort of tragic mistakes happen and will continue to occur. It's one of the terrible prices we pay to wage wars we don't want to fight in the first place. Human beings, whether they fly a British or US flag over their heads, make mistakes that they, unfortunately, must live with.
That said, it's not unrealistic to assume that some folks in the US military are incompetent; in fact, I'm sure that a few of you have some horror stories to tell. No, the US military is not without incompetence, but it's important to remember that the US military does it's very best to train highly motivated, highly intelligent individuals to perform difficult jobs under difficult circumstances. These tragedies are simply inevitable, but thanks to training and technology, they are far less frequent than they would be otherwise. Certainly, with all the sorties flown and the ground covered during this war it's amazing we do not hear of more mishaps.
In closing, I would like to extend my personal respect and condolescences to the families of those British pilots lost to friendly fire. I salute them for their service to the United Kingdom and the coalition efforts in Iraq to preserve freedom from tyranny and terror. It is with gratitude that I thank all those who serve in the British and United States military, and bow my head in prayer for those who have made the ultimate sacrifice.
Sincerely,
Vincent C. Palmieri
Ok so yes you are probably all right about the friendly fire incident being a totall mistake and yes decisions are made on the spur of the moment in war conditions that turn out to be tragic mistakes!
I would like to say sorry for my outburstas this is all i can say that it was!
I do not usually get so pissed about things like this but i did this time for whatever reason and i am in the wrong i admit to say! something hit a nerve in me and i just had a knee jerk reaction to it!
Hope i did not offend anyone too much as i have enjoyed my time here in the WOF camp!!
With regrets Nemisis
I would like to say sorry for my outburstas this is all i can say that it was!
I do not usually get so pissed about things like this but i did this time for whatever reason and i am in the wrong i admit to say! something hit a nerve in me and i just had a knee jerk reaction to it!
Hope i did not offend anyone too much as i have enjoyed my time here in the WOF camp!!
With regrets Nemisis
Lose Sight! Lose The Fight!8)
Barrie "Nemisis" Brownlee
[img]http://img201.exs.cx/img201/2690/nemisissignature0xl.gif[/img]
Barrie "Nemisis" Brownlee
[img]http://img201.exs.cx/img201/2690/nemisissignature0xl.gif[/img]
Nope - it is good to know you can come here to unload... You may get some hard, sharp replies, but we all have different viewpoints and can accept that others do not necessarilly see things the way we do.
Personally, if Kodiak does have something to say I do wish he would let it out as well... That is one of the ways we all get to know and respect each other more... ;)
The most amazing thing that has hit me the hardest is the grenade attack by SSG Akbar in the 101st. I was a member of the 101st, and for some reason we seem to associate with our old units... I just can not fathom that an NCO (same rank as I was) with that amount of time and effort to get there could do something like that.
Personally, if Kodiak does have something to say I do wish he would let it out as well... That is one of the ways we all get to know and respect each other more... ;)
The most amazing thing that has hit me the hardest is the grenade attack by SSG Akbar in the 101st. I was a member of the 101st, and for some reason we seem to associate with our old units... I just can not fathom that an NCO (same rank as I was) with that amount of time and effort to get there could do something like that.
Helmut