I agree. Great quote!
HUUUUAH!!
Range Report
Moderator: RLG MGMT Team
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PanzerMeyer
- Posts: 4798
- Joined: 10 Feb 2004, 08:54
- Location: Miami, Florida
hardcore, aren't you guys...??? 
you may not think it is so nice if you do it or have to do it. killing another living thing, much less a human being, is a very altering experience. it should not be taken so lightly or thought of as easy.
the soldiers comment above was probably taken out of context as the press and others are extremely likely to do, and is also highly and deeply indicative of the effects of the job and environment.
it is a problem i have with the way warfare and violence is portrayed in our societies currently and i believe it is responsible in part for the down turn of our culture. the press, video games, television, etc. that many of our young people are allowed to experience leads to more and more callous attitudes - not only towards viloence but towards other human beings and the world around them in general.
you may not think it is so nice if you do it or have to do it. killing another living thing, much less a human being, is a very altering experience. it should not be taken so lightly or thought of as easy.
the soldiers comment above was probably taken out of context as the press and others are extremely likely to do, and is also highly and deeply indicative of the effects of the job and environment.
it is a problem i have with the way warfare and violence is portrayed in our societies currently and i believe it is responsible in part for the down turn of our culture. the press, video games, television, etc. that many of our young people are allowed to experience leads to more and more callous attitudes - not only towards viloence but towards other human beings and the world around them in general.
Helmut
I've done 24 years total in green. And when you're treated with contempt by the very people you are there to protect, dulls your senses towards their feelings.hardcore, aren't you guys...???
The fact that I indicate that I appreciate his quote, is an indication of taste in sense of humour, nothing more. Funnily enough this 'sense of humour' is what keeps the majority of us sane in those sorts of environments - I'm surprised you don't understand that Steel. It shouldn't be taken out of context. Killing another human being isn't something taken lightly, but it's not something you ponder over either - it's a decision made in an instant, and you're not always in control of which decision you take. Sometimes your decision/reaction is simply governed by conditioning and instinct. Hesitation is fatal in those sort of circumstances. And we are not trained and phsycological conditioned to generate the whys or where-fors in such an environment. Although the younger generation of soldier is tending that way, and it creates problems all of it's own. Start questioning orders in that sort of place you'll wind-up dead, all on your own! That. of course, is not to say that there isn't a time and place to question orders - the sensible ones know when an order is bollox, but they also know what to do about it too!
Finally, the value of ALL life cannot be overstated. Just because we joke about life and death doesn't mean WE don't place it high on our list of values, although you are quite correct that the younger generations tend not to value their own lives, let alone those of others - we see that in society today, everywhere. This whole culture has been created by the so-called do-gooders who say we can't smack our children. That they can't be punished for doing wrong, but instead we should give them allsorts of nonsense drugs, give them an excuse called a mental illness, blame it on the parents themselves for the child's condition, then put the parents in jail when the children do something and they are too young saying the parents can't control their children and take them away too. Control your children, but don't dare breach their rights as a human being, blah blah!! Sure there are those who abuse kids - don't waste my taxes, kill em! But bring back corporal punishment in schools, allow parents to 'discipline' their kids. Make them grow up with an understanding of life and good values, manners - even if a few of them have to have it beaten into them! It didn't do previous generations any harm did it?!
Yes, you are probably right. A soldier's sense of humour has been abused by the press as they call themselves, as a means to their own ends. Probably trying to make a point of 'what war does to the mind bulls***'
It is not the technique that wins a fight, but the more furious mind - Kodiak WOF
You are stuck on stupid. I'm not going to answer that question! - Gen Honore, New Orleans Sep 05
You are stuck on stupid. I'm not going to answer that question! - Gen Honore, New Orleans Sep 05
i do understand - totally. i don't think 24 years hqas much to do with it. either you've got it or you don't. you know as well as i that there are those that will do 30 years or more if they can just because they can - and they don't really give a crap about the ideals... they ARE mostly weeded out early on though.
and i agree..."And when you're treated with contempt by the very people you are there to protect, dulls your senses towards their feelings." but on the other hand that is what it is all about - at least here in the US. it is how the US was built (unless you count greedy motivation... ;) ). it is called the ultimate sacrifice, selfless motivation, and most folks don't get how someone could willingly give their life to protect others - even when those others scoff at those saving them...
i think it is just not something to be so callously lauded... ;)
"It didn't do previous generations any harm did it?! "
reminds me:
TO ALL THE KIDS WHO SURVIVED the 1930's 40's, 50's, 60's and 70's.
First, we survived being born to mothers who smoked and/or drank while they carried us. They took aspirin, ate blue cheese dressing, tuna from a can, and didn't get tested for diabetes. Then after that trauma, our baby cribs were covered with bright colored lead-based paints. We had no childproof lids on medicine bottles, doors or cabinets and when we rode our bikes, we had no helmets, not to mention, the risks we took hitchhiking.
As children, we would ride in cars with no seat belts or air bags. Riding in the back of a pick up on a warm day was always a special treat. We drank water from the garden hose and NOT from a bottle. We shared one soft drink with four friends, from one bottle and NO ONE actually died from this. We ate cupcakes, white bread and real butter and drank soda pop with sugar in it, but we weren't overweight because WE WERE ALWAYS OUTSIDE PLAYING!
We would leave home in the morning and play all day, as long as we were back when the streetlights came on. No one was able to reach us all day. And we were O.K. We would spend hours building our go-carts out of scraps and then ride down the hill, only to find out we forgot the brakes. After running into the bushes a few times, we learned to solve the problem. We did not have Playstations, Nintendo's, X-boxes, no video games at all, no 99 channels on cable, no video tape movies, no surround sound, no cell phones, no personal computers, no Internet or Internet chat rooms..........WE HAD FRIENDS and we went outside and found them!
We fell out of trees, got cut, broke bones and teeth and there were no lawsuits from these accidents. We ate worms and mud pies made from dirt, and the worms did not live in us forever. We were given BB guns for our 10th birthdays, made up games with sticks and tennis balls and although we were told it would happen, we did not put out very many eyes.
We rode bikes or walked to a friend's house and knocked on the door or
rang the bell, or just walked in and talked to them! Little League had tryouts and not everyone made the team. Those who didn't had to learn to deal with disappointment. Imagine that!!
The idea of a parent bailing us out if we broke the law was unheard of. They actually sided with the law!
This generation has produced some of the best risk-takers, problem
solvers and inventors ever!
The past 50 years have been an explosion of innovation and new ideas.
We had freedom, failure, success and responsibility, and we learned HOW TO DEAL WITH IT ALL!
And YOU are one of them! CONGRATULATIONS!
You might want to share this with others who have had the luck to grow
up as kids, before the lawyers and the government regulated our lives
for our own good. And while you are at it, forward it to your kids so they will know how brave their parents were.
Kind of makes you want to run through the house with scissors, doesn't it?!
and i agree..."And when you're treated with contempt by the very people you are there to protect, dulls your senses towards their feelings." but on the other hand that is what it is all about - at least here in the US. it is how the US was built (unless you count greedy motivation... ;) ). it is called the ultimate sacrifice, selfless motivation, and most folks don't get how someone could willingly give their life to protect others - even when those others scoff at those saving them...
i think it is just not something to be so callously lauded... ;)
"It didn't do previous generations any harm did it?! "
reminds me:
TO ALL THE KIDS WHO SURVIVED the 1930's 40's, 50's, 60's and 70's.
First, we survived being born to mothers who smoked and/or drank while they carried us. They took aspirin, ate blue cheese dressing, tuna from a can, and didn't get tested for diabetes. Then after that trauma, our baby cribs were covered with bright colored lead-based paints. We had no childproof lids on medicine bottles, doors or cabinets and when we rode our bikes, we had no helmets, not to mention, the risks we took hitchhiking.
As children, we would ride in cars with no seat belts or air bags. Riding in the back of a pick up on a warm day was always a special treat. We drank water from the garden hose and NOT from a bottle. We shared one soft drink with four friends, from one bottle and NO ONE actually died from this. We ate cupcakes, white bread and real butter and drank soda pop with sugar in it, but we weren't overweight because WE WERE ALWAYS OUTSIDE PLAYING!
We would leave home in the morning and play all day, as long as we were back when the streetlights came on. No one was able to reach us all day. And we were O.K. We would spend hours building our go-carts out of scraps and then ride down the hill, only to find out we forgot the brakes. After running into the bushes a few times, we learned to solve the problem. We did not have Playstations, Nintendo's, X-boxes, no video games at all, no 99 channels on cable, no video tape movies, no surround sound, no cell phones, no personal computers, no Internet or Internet chat rooms..........WE HAD FRIENDS and we went outside and found them!
We fell out of trees, got cut, broke bones and teeth and there were no lawsuits from these accidents. We ate worms and mud pies made from dirt, and the worms did not live in us forever. We were given BB guns for our 10th birthdays, made up games with sticks and tennis balls and although we were told it would happen, we did not put out very many eyes.
We rode bikes or walked to a friend's house and knocked on the door or
rang the bell, or just walked in and talked to them! Little League had tryouts and not everyone made the team. Those who didn't had to learn to deal with disappointment. Imagine that!!
The idea of a parent bailing us out if we broke the law was unheard of. They actually sided with the law!
This generation has produced some of the best risk-takers, problem
solvers and inventors ever!
The past 50 years have been an explosion of innovation and new ideas.
We had freedom, failure, success and responsibility, and we learned HOW TO DEAL WITH IT ALL!
And YOU are one of them! CONGRATULATIONS!
You might want to share this with others who have had the luck to grow
up as kids, before the lawyers and the government regulated our lives
for our own good. And while you are at it, forward it to your kids so they will know how brave their parents were.
Kind of makes you want to run through the house with scissors, doesn't it?!
Helmut
Absolutely agreed, not something to be callously lauded either. But pretty much only those who have been part of all that can truely understand the where the soldier was making the comment from. So it is the audience that is flawed, in a fashion. Hearing what is said and understanding what you are hearing can be two completely different things.
Undoubteldy, it will all come full circle eventually. Nature's way of balancing the erosion of Father Time. Look at the way cultures are merging slowly, the cosmopolitan London and multi-cultural California area but for two examples. Man originated in South Africa they say, and came northwards into and through the northern hemisphere, spreading across Europe and Asia. He changed to suit his environment and eventually the white man appeared more adept and mentally agile than his ancestors. me, I would have thought those who remained in the vicinity of the origins of man would have grown faster in the mental stakes, but hey, I'm no expert and am sure they have excuses for that!! Now slowly, we see the 'white' man's skin turning a pale shade of brown again. Anyway, we digress . . . .
Undoubteldy, it will all come full circle eventually. Nature's way of balancing the erosion of Father Time. Look at the way cultures are merging slowly, the cosmopolitan London and multi-cultural California area but for two examples. Man originated in South Africa they say, and came northwards into and through the northern hemisphere, spreading across Europe and Asia. He changed to suit his environment and eventually the white man appeared more adept and mentally agile than his ancestors. me, I would have thought those who remained in the vicinity of the origins of man would have grown faster in the mental stakes, but hey, I'm no expert and am sure they have excuses for that!! Now slowly, we see the 'white' man's skin turning a pale shade of brown again. Anyway, we digress . . . .
It is not the technique that wins a fight, but the more furious mind - Kodiak WOF
You are stuck on stupid. I'm not going to answer that question! - Gen Honore, New Orleans Sep 05
You are stuck on stupid. I'm not going to answer that question! - Gen Honore, New Orleans Sep 05
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Buffalo Six
- Posts: 1489
- Joined: 11 Jul 2002, 17:26
- Location: Wichita KS
thats all well and good Falker, but have you been awoken in the wee hours by a crack head kicking the back door in? Been there, bought the coffee cup..a nice set of 3. Ever had to dive into the bath tub when the gang bangers 2 houses down decide to have a shoot out with the other gang bangers across the steet? Ever had you house hit my stray rounds from a drive by at the said gang bangers 2 houses down? Ever come home and find all your electronic equipment, most of your clothes, and all the silverware and knives missing?
The 1st time it happened, all I had to defend myself was a 9 iron and a baseball bat (might have been a softball bat......but anyway). After that, I went to my dad and got my old .45 which was willed to me from a family member. My dad is a FFL which means he is a licenced firearms dealer. After talking to my dad and many other people including 2 of the LEO's that worked my 2nd break-in, and they all suggested a pump or semi-auto shot gun. I got a Mossberg because of price and barrel length. 26" barrels and a folding stock mean ease of movment inside the home and if you have never shot a 12 ga. from just a pistol grip....well I did and I couldnt hold a can of pop for 3 hours. So...some sort of stock was needed. I put a light on it because I wanted to be damn sure of my target. I had a roommate at the time and I didnt want to mistake him for a bad guy. I still use the the 1911 for backup.
I take my ownership of firearms very seriously. I have friends that I refuse to hunt with because while they are good people in normal settings....they are freaking morons gun wise in the field. I about flat decked a co-worker after he swept me for the 3rd time with his gun with his finger planted firmly around the trigger while on a hunt several years ago. We dont work together anymore but at the time he was clueless and didnt see what the problem was. He also was a sucky engineer. I attend gun safety classes once a year for both handguns and shotguns, and now that I have my AR, I'll attend a safety class in the spring when they start up. If Kansas passes the CCW bill this year I will most likely apply and take the required traing for that. Do I plan to carry....no but there are times when I may want/need to.
God forbid I ever have to defend my person with a firearm. I'd perfer for the badguy to know that I am armed and call it a day. But I feel it is in my best interest to be better prepared than the badguy and hold every advantage I can. If I go the rest of my life without ever having someone try to break-into my home, that would be fine with me. But after having been in that situation before and un-armed......I feel it is safer to be prepared.
Your mileage may vary.................
P.S. Steel, I just thought the funny part of my sig was the Al-Reuters reporter asking a sniper about "feelings" like they expected some sort of touchy-feely LLL crap.
The 1st time it happened, all I had to defend myself was a 9 iron and a baseball bat (might have been a softball bat......but anyway). After that, I went to my dad and got my old .45 which was willed to me from a family member. My dad is a FFL which means he is a licenced firearms dealer. After talking to my dad and many other people including 2 of the LEO's that worked my 2nd break-in, and they all suggested a pump or semi-auto shot gun. I got a Mossberg because of price and barrel length. 26" barrels and a folding stock mean ease of movment inside the home and if you have never shot a 12 ga. from just a pistol grip....well I did and I couldnt hold a can of pop for 3 hours. So...some sort of stock was needed. I put a light on it because I wanted to be damn sure of my target. I had a roommate at the time and I didnt want to mistake him for a bad guy. I still use the the 1911 for backup.
I take my ownership of firearms very seriously. I have friends that I refuse to hunt with because while they are good people in normal settings....they are freaking morons gun wise in the field. I about flat decked a co-worker after he swept me for the 3rd time with his gun with his finger planted firmly around the trigger while on a hunt several years ago. We dont work together anymore but at the time he was clueless and didnt see what the problem was. He also was a sucky engineer. I attend gun safety classes once a year for both handguns and shotguns, and now that I have my AR, I'll attend a safety class in the spring when they start up. If Kansas passes the CCW bill this year I will most likely apply and take the required traing for that. Do I plan to carry....no but there are times when I may want/need to.
God forbid I ever have to defend my person with a firearm. I'd perfer for the badguy to know that I am armed and call it a day. But I feel it is in my best interest to be better prepared than the badguy and hold every advantage I can. If I go the rest of my life without ever having someone try to break-into my home, that would be fine with me. But after having been in that situation before and un-armed......I feel it is safer to be prepared.
Your mileage may vary.................
P.S. Steel, I just thought the funny part of my sig was the Al-Reuters reporter asking a sniper about "feelings" like they expected some sort of touchy-feely LLL crap.
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BlackHawk*K
- Posts: 1051
- Joined: 12 May 2001, 17:00
- Location: Oklahoma
some interesting things being said in this post.
Buff i agree with you totaly on the gun safty thing, in fact im suprised you didnt plant this guy on his rear the first time he swept you. funny, i took a gun safty corse when i was 8 yrs old. and i learned you NEVER put your finger on the trigger till your ready to kill soemthing, and that someting damn well better not be a person or a person anywhere you can see em in a nice 45 degree arc lol. im a safty nut when it comes to guns. and to be honest the same attitude carried over to useing the tools of my trade. ( probably why i have all my fingers to date, and havnt planeted a 16 penny nail threw my hand)
as to service men, im am totaly and always respectfull and in awe of those ppl who sacrifice their life styles. their comfort, and yes, their lives so i can maintain mine..
Steel i know what you mean about respect. but i think the show of respect towards others is simply a second hand symptom of a greater problem, and thats no respect for themselves. being on the lower end of the income levels and dealing with ppl in my line of work. ive noticed that a majority of these ppl dont care about themselves. in some cases probably hate themselves. and if they cant get a inkling of caring about themselves they WONT ever care about anyone else. my bother in law is the same way, my wife was sorta this way when i first met her. but fortunatly ( i like to think by example) she starting caring about herself. and i noticed a increase in respect and caring for others too.
Kodiak, im sorry you have ppl who disrepect you. its sad for them that they cant give a sh#t about anything enough to respect other ppl, especialy other ppl who give them the freedom to not care! in a way i feel sorry for them. to a point. i mean its probably not even a comfort knowing how sad they are. but i think i know at least your proud of the things youve done and others out there are as well im sure.
anyhow, its late and im rattling on
one thing ive always try to remember when dealing with other ppl. never make a judgement till you walk a mile in their shoes. i think about that alot. sometimes it helps, sometimes it dont.
( doh started rattling on again! ) going to go!
Buff i agree with you totaly on the gun safty thing, in fact im suprised you didnt plant this guy on his rear the first time he swept you. funny, i took a gun safty corse when i was 8 yrs old. and i learned you NEVER put your finger on the trigger till your ready to kill soemthing, and that someting damn well better not be a person or a person anywhere you can see em in a nice 45 degree arc lol. im a safty nut when it comes to guns. and to be honest the same attitude carried over to useing the tools of my trade. ( probably why i have all my fingers to date, and havnt planeted a 16 penny nail threw my hand)
as to service men, im am totaly and always respectfull and in awe of those ppl who sacrifice their life styles. their comfort, and yes, their lives so i can maintain mine..
Steel i know what you mean about respect. but i think the show of respect towards others is simply a second hand symptom of a greater problem, and thats no respect for themselves. being on the lower end of the income levels and dealing with ppl in my line of work. ive noticed that a majority of these ppl dont care about themselves. in some cases probably hate themselves. and if they cant get a inkling of caring about themselves they WONT ever care about anyone else. my bother in law is the same way, my wife was sorta this way when i first met her. but fortunatly ( i like to think by example) she starting caring about herself. and i noticed a increase in respect and caring for others too.
Kodiak, im sorry you have ppl who disrepect you. its sad for them that they cant give a sh#t about anything enough to respect other ppl, especialy other ppl who give them the freedom to not care! in a way i feel sorry for them. to a point. i mean its probably not even a comfort knowing how sad they are. but i think i know at least your proud of the things youve done and others out there are as well im sure.
anyhow, its late and im rattling on
one thing ive always try to remember when dealing with other ppl. never make a judgement till you walk a mile in their shoes. i think about that alot. sometimes it helps, sometimes it dont.
( doh started rattling on again! ) going to go!
BH, it's not just me or particularly me. It happens to all servicemen, at a varying degree of levels. Anyone who has served, understands - you can get to the point where you don't particulary care for 'them', but you just do your job, and follow your orders. Yes, you can be putting your life on the line, but you don't think about it in that sense after a while. Just get the job done and bring everyone home I guess. What I mean is, pilots don't think about crashing everytime they take-off or land - they're too busy thinking about taking-off or landing. It's when all you do is think about crashing that something goes wrong!
Buff's attitude towards weapons is a refreshing one, to say the least. And you're right - you'd only do that sort of thing once on the range where I come from. And you might even regret that!
"Never point a weapon at ANYONE, even in jest!" Usually the first words from the instructor's mouth for your first weapon handling drill lesson.
Buff's attitude towards weapons is a refreshing one, to say the least. And you're right - you'd only do that sort of thing once on the range where I come from. And you might even regret that!
"Never point a weapon at ANYONE, even in jest!" Usually the first words from the instructor's mouth for your first weapon handling drill lesson.
It is not the technique that wins a fight, but the more furious mind - Kodiak WOF
You are stuck on stupid. I'm not going to answer that question! - Gen Honore, New Orleans Sep 05
You are stuck on stupid. I'm not going to answer that question! - Gen Honore, New Orleans Sep 05
"It happens to all servicemen, at a varying degree of levels" - yep...
3 times Buff??? You are quite restrained.
I don't think lack of respect/caring about oneself has to do with income level. I was dirt poor growing up. My wife has been dirt poor growing up - in Mexico her family was on a subsistence level of income. In other words they had their land and livestock and hunted for or grew food. Neither of us have a lack of respect for ourselves or others. Lack of respect has to do with your environment and what your parents and others teach/instill while you are growing up. These days we have most parents using the TV as a babysitter...and what is on TV? Crap for the most part. Violence, adultery, etc. Then we have the console games that are so accessible for children. What are a large portion of those games? Same thing...
The sarcastic sense of humor is generally appreciated by a lot of folks. My point about the comment in the sig was that most folks have absolutely no clue about where it has come from...
3 times Buff??? You are quite restrained.
I don't think lack of respect/caring about oneself has to do with income level. I was dirt poor growing up. My wife has been dirt poor growing up - in Mexico her family was on a subsistence level of income. In other words they had their land and livestock and hunted for or grew food. Neither of us have a lack of respect for ourselves or others. Lack of respect has to do with your environment and what your parents and others teach/instill while you are growing up. These days we have most parents using the TV as a babysitter...and what is on TV? Crap for the most part. Violence, adultery, etc. Then we have the console games that are so accessible for children. What are a large portion of those games? Same thing...
The sarcastic sense of humor is generally appreciated by a lot of folks. My point about the comment in the sig was that most folks have absolutely no clue about where it has come from...
Helmut
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PanzerMeyer
- Posts: 4798
- Joined: 10 Feb 2004, 08:54
- Location: Miami, Florida
Buffalo Six wrote: P.S. Steel, I just thought the funny part of my sig was the Al-Reuters reporter asking a sniper about "feelings" like they expected some sort of touchy-feely LLL crap.
that didn't surprise me at all when you consider that the vast majority of journalists have a politically liberal agenda. He was probably trying to setup and trap the special forces guy into saying something that would get him in trouble or maybe look stupid.
I have learned from experience that a modicum of snuff can be most efficacious - Baron Munchausen
As a member of the so called 'playstation generation' i actually find the arguement that the folks who grew up in the 50's to 70's are somehow 'better' a trifle wearing. Sure i watched TV as a kid, played on a playstation etc, but that's not all i did. I played sports for my school, went to my friends farm and drove around on his quad bike, all sorts of stuff.
Then there's the whole thing about mothers smoking etc while pregnant. Whilst it may not have done some people any harm, i don't see how you can argue that it's ok to do it, when there's substantial proof that it's not.
Kids may have ridden their bikes to their friends houses in safety back then. They can't do it as much now. Why not? Because lots of parents are worried that they're going to be abducted by one of these so called 'better' people born from a different age.
This is nothing personal against you guys, but it really gets to me how people of my generation are looked down upon because society and general interests and technology have changed/moved on. Let's face it, no-one likes to be told that they're past it/over the hill. Equally no-one likes to be told that because of the society and time you grew up in that your not as good as your predecessors
Then there's the whole thing about mothers smoking etc while pregnant. Whilst it may not have done some people any harm, i don't see how you can argue that it's ok to do it, when there's substantial proof that it's not.
Kids may have ridden their bikes to their friends houses in safety back then. They can't do it as much now. Why not? Because lots of parents are worried that they're going to be abducted by one of these so called 'better' people born from a different age.
This is nothing personal against you guys, but it really gets to me how people of my generation are looked down upon because society and general interests and technology have changed/moved on. Let's face it, no-one likes to be told that they're past it/over the hill. Equally no-one likes to be told that because of the society and time you grew up in that your not as good as your predecessors
[img]http://www.151recon.org/Mooses%20Sig.gif[/img]
not saying that Moose... it is a point of reference. there is a LOT of truth in that thing i posted...a LOT. it is also rather toungue in cheek, no?
it is also true that some folks coming up nowadays are really not all that bad...
they tend to gravitate towards others of their ilk, including us older folks that did grow up before you younger folks were thought of being born. look at the ages of the folks that participate here... it is widely varied.
and yes, there are enough bad folks from back in the day. there always were and always will be. i think it is the extreme of the bad folks behaviour that has changed... it follows the amount of sensationalism that is prevalent in our society to garner attention. it has steadily increased over the generations/years. what was shocking behaviour in the 60's is now not even seen as unusual. so the tendency is for older folks to be more "well behaved" and younger folks to be much more open with what older folks see as aberrant behaviour (hmmm, aberrant was an alignment type in a role playing game is used to play...). does my point of view make sense?
it is also true that some folks coming up nowadays are really not all that bad...
they tend to gravitate towards others of their ilk, including us older folks that did grow up before you younger folks were thought of being born. look at the ages of the folks that participate here... it is widely varied.and yes, there are enough bad folks from back in the day. there always were and always will be. i think it is the extreme of the bad folks behaviour that has changed... it follows the amount of sensationalism that is prevalent in our society to garner attention. it has steadily increased over the generations/years. what was shocking behaviour in the 60's is now not even seen as unusual. so the tendency is for older folks to be more "well behaved" and younger folks to be much more open with what older folks see as aberrant behaviour (hmmm, aberrant was an alignment type in a role playing game is used to play...). does my point of view make sense?
Helmut
Here are some words to echo around in your head, Moose. When you reach that age, you WILL look back and assess the younger generations to be exactly the way we see them currently. Of course, as Steel says we are not tarring everyone with the same old brush, and it IS placed as a point of reference. Much of it you will admit to be true, if you sit long enough and contemplate. Here is a thought, in days gone by, you could have a disagreement with someone. Perhaps over your girlfriend. He would 'dis' you infront of her - that gave you the moral right to ask him outside to be taught a lesson in manners. Perhaps he would be bullish enough to go, because he had his friends there. So, outside you go, shirts came off, and the fists came up - you 'squared-off' and went at it from there, without interference from anyone else. Done and dusted, generally. These days, you would be accosted by his mates before he even got to you, maybe even glassed or knifed. Then thrown out with the trash. Bouncers would help you after they'd finished - because they aren't really the big hard cases they promote themselves to be. 4 times out of 5 they'd throw YOU out again anyway!! You daren't try to help anyone because you are next these days.
As a child, if found to be doing something wrong by the local bobby, he would cuff you round the lug, and send you home with your tail between your legs. Not to mention he knew you - by name!! Jeez, if yopu were unlucky like me he was the next door neighbour's son - who was the bloody local commisioner! :shock:
Problem was that when you got home, your father already knew, and usually was opening the door as you pressed the doorbell. :oops: So you got another one, only this time it didn't feel like a hand - more like a shovel!! 
Oh man, I hated running that little gauntlet, cause if he even missed slightly, you got another one for good measure. Sometimes you got your backside properly 'warmed-up' too. All this PC stuff has removed the ability of parents to strike the fear of god into their kids should they do wrong. And as a result kids simply fail to show respect to anyone let alone their parents.
As a child, if found to be doing something wrong by the local bobby, he would cuff you round the lug, and send you home with your tail between your legs. Not to mention he knew you - by name!! Jeez, if yopu were unlucky like me he was the next door neighbour's son - who was the bloody local commisioner! :shock:
Problem was that when you got home, your father already knew, and usually was opening the door as you pressed the doorbell. :oops: So you got another one, only this time it didn't feel like a hand - more like a shovel!! Oh man, I hated running that little gauntlet, cause if he even missed slightly, you got another one for good measure. Sometimes you got your backside properly 'warmed-up' too. All this PC stuff has removed the ability of parents to strike the fear of god into their kids should they do wrong. And as a result kids simply fail to show respect to anyone let alone their parents.It is not the technique that wins a fight, but the more furious mind - Kodiak WOF
You are stuck on stupid. I'm not going to answer that question! - Gen Honore, New Orleans Sep 05
You are stuck on stupid. I'm not going to answer that question! - Gen Honore, New Orleans Sep 05
I gotta say mate, i don't agree with a lot of what u say there (but then i guess that's the beauty of the human condition:))
Speaking for myself and my friends, if someone has a go at one of us, he is invited outside. It is 1 on 1, and the 2 groups of friends prevent each other from interfering. I'll concede that bouncers are generally bloody useless.
As for respect for my parents etc, i can tell you for a fact that if i did something wrong as i kid, i was given a damn good hiding for my troubles. This goes for me, my brother and my sister....none of this 'sit on the naughty step' bollocks. As such, i have a healthy respect for most people, and would hope that the same can be said the other way round.
I suppose i can only speak from my own viewpoint, but whether contains a lot of truth or not, tongue in cheek or not, i think it remains a sweeping statement that doesn't take into account numerous factors. I get fed up with the hypocrisy of the issue (not that i'm suggesting that's occuring here), because if a 'younger' person made a statement saying, i don't know, something like 'all older people are stuck in the past, with anachronistic values resulting from an old-fashioned sense of morality and society' then it would be widely condemmed. However, when the reverse occurs, i.e. the youth of today is basically described as being a lardy, useless jesse, then is brushed off as simply being 'the way it is' or 'not to be taken seriously'.
I can understand the arguments you guys make, Jeez, i get them enough from my dad
, i just think that it's more of a two way street when it comes the the flaws within each generation.......btw, i'm going to save this debate in case i need it for the next year of my degree...i'm sure i can fit it into sociology of popular culture
Speaking for myself and my friends, if someone has a go at one of us, he is invited outside. It is 1 on 1, and the 2 groups of friends prevent each other from interfering. I'll concede that bouncers are generally bloody useless.
As for respect for my parents etc, i can tell you for a fact that if i did something wrong as i kid, i was given a damn good hiding for my troubles. This goes for me, my brother and my sister....none of this 'sit on the naughty step' bollocks. As such, i have a healthy respect for most people, and would hope that the same can be said the other way round.
I suppose i can only speak from my own viewpoint, but whether contains a lot of truth or not, tongue in cheek or not, i think it remains a sweeping statement that doesn't take into account numerous factors. I get fed up with the hypocrisy of the issue (not that i'm suggesting that's occuring here), because if a 'younger' person made a statement saying, i don't know, something like 'all older people are stuck in the past, with anachronistic values resulting from an old-fashioned sense of morality and society' then it would be widely condemmed. However, when the reverse occurs, i.e. the youth of today is basically described as being a lardy, useless jesse, then is brushed off as simply being 'the way it is' or 'not to be taken seriously'.
I can understand the arguments you guys make, Jeez, i get them enough from my dad
, i just think that it's more of a two way street when it comes the the flaws within each generation.......btw, i'm going to save this debate in case i need it for the next year of my degree...i'm sure i can fit it into sociology of popular culture [img]http://www.151recon.org/Mooses%20Sig.gif[/img]
hey - if you use this i want credit!!!
it is a two way street...
o.k. - lardy i get. what the heck is a jesse???
"As for respect for my parents etc, i can tell you for a fact that if i did something wrong as i kid, i was given a damn good hiding for my troubles. This goes for me, my brother and my sister....none of this 'sit on the naughty step' bollocks. As such, i have a healthy respect for most people, and would hope that the same can be said the other way round."
i think that gets right to my point. that is why you are here and we in here with you... same ilk and all...
but really Moose, you are far too young to... doh! ;)
it is a two way street...
o.k. - lardy i get. what the heck is a jesse???
"As for respect for my parents etc, i can tell you for a fact that if i did something wrong as i kid, i was given a damn good hiding for my troubles. This goes for me, my brother and my sister....none of this 'sit on the naughty step' bollocks. As such, i have a healthy respect for most people, and would hope that the same can be said the other way round."
i think that gets right to my point. that is why you are here and we in here with you...
same ilk and all...but really Moose, you are far too young to... doh!
;)Helmut
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BlackHawk*K
- Posts: 1051
- Joined: 12 May 2001, 17:00
- Location: Oklahoma
i can see both Moose's and Kodiak's point in this. ive seen kids raised up in the worst possible circomstances turn out realy good ( i happen to think im one of them. ) i think some ppl just care about others out of the demands of their personality. its just he opposite side of the same old coin of the bad seed ppl who were raised up strait laced but turned 'bad'..
i think the difference your discribe and see as a hypocrisy is more due to the societies views on whats allowable or not. past vs present. for instance. in the past it was 'OK' to be racist to a certain extent. but god forbid having long hair and living with your parents without a job past 18 yrs of age. ( unless you were a girl then it was ok becuse you were not expected to have a job becuse your supposed to be married! ) some issues have taken a downslope ride, while others have improved over the decades.
im not totaly convinced the down hill slide regarding the caring of others is totaly due to TV and games. ive spent alot of time being raised by the boob toob as a kid. and was ( AM NOW ) a video game fanatic. almost all my games are violent. and were when i was a youngen. but for some reason i still retain a respect for others. and as far as TV was concerned it was and still is all holly weird. im not sure what the cause is.. no matter what model of theory you put to it you find exceptions.
there is on thing though, moose mentioned getting a good hiding. ive had my rear end taned quite a few times too. im curious if alot of the problems with respect down the generations isnt due to disipline ( physical mainly). after all it seems to be a comon view that physical punishment of any kind is greatly frouned on. so is it posible that the lack of this kind of disipline may be a main factor?
i think the difference your discribe and see as a hypocrisy is more due to the societies views on whats allowable or not. past vs present. for instance. in the past it was 'OK' to be racist to a certain extent. but god forbid having long hair and living with your parents without a job past 18 yrs of age. ( unless you were a girl then it was ok becuse you were not expected to have a job becuse your supposed to be married! ) some issues have taken a downslope ride, while others have improved over the decades.
im not totaly convinced the down hill slide regarding the caring of others is totaly due to TV and games. ive spent alot of time being raised by the boob toob as a kid. and was ( AM NOW ) a video game fanatic. almost all my games are violent. and were when i was a youngen. but for some reason i still retain a respect for others. and as far as TV was concerned it was and still is all holly weird. im not sure what the cause is.. no matter what model of theory you put to it you find exceptions.
there is on thing though, moose mentioned getting a good hiding. ive had my rear end taned quite a few times too. im curious if alot of the problems with respect down the generations isnt due to disipline ( physical mainly). after all it seems to be a comon view that physical punishment of any kind is greatly frouned on. so is it posible that the lack of this kind of disipline may be a main factor?
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Buffalo Six
- Posts: 1489
- Joined: 11 Jul 2002, 17:26
- Location: Wichita KS
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Tach Deneva
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