Electric prices

Madrus · Post by **Madrus** » 17 Sep 2003, 12:00

We discussed this on Monday night, and it got me to thinking about it. Apparently, i was way off of what we have been paying for electricity.

I think I said that our house is about 3500 or 3600 square feet. That is about right since i checked my records and we have 2800 square feet with a 700 square foot finished basement.

But i thought our electric bills have been averaging between 100-200 dollars; the correct figure is $230 per month average over the past 12 months. We use gas for water and heat though, but our washer and dryer are electric.

What were some of you guys paying?

Softball · Post by **Softball** » 17 Sep 2003, 12:45

For our 2000 sq ft home, we are paying about $185 / month (Flat rate), and we have a pool that requires filtering on a daily basis, 3-4 hours a day. Some months we use more than that, but we still pay the $185 flat fee. This last month was less ($152), but because we pay a flat fee, we pay $185 no matter what. 2 years ago we paid $70/month for the same usage, so electricity has almost tripled in cost here.

Nemisis · Post by **Nemisis** » 17 Sep 2003, 16:03

I have no idea what square footage my house is but the layout is kitchen, dinning room, Living room, 2 bedrooms and bathroom, which is about the normal size for the average british house, but monthly costs are:

£25 ($38 ) per month Electric

£30 ($45) per month Gas

We have gas central heating that heats our hot water supply as well (Heating is unused during summer months so virtually no running costs for gas then) but we use a lot over winter which averages out at the above rate for the year.

this is slightly below average costs for an average british housebut not by much.

Electric is virtually constant usuage throughout the year.

Hammer · Post by **Hammer** » 18 Sep 2003, 19:55

you only pay around $300 in the summer because you have icicles hanging from the ceiling fans...

My house is single story, 2600 sq ft, and I pay around $225 in the summer (HOT out here) and I am not sure in the winter. I have propane for heating, stove, and dryer. That runs me about $100 per month in the winter and about $65 in the summer...

Gator · Post by **Gator** » 19 Sep 2003, 10:04

Our townhouse is about 1400 sq-ft. We pay about $100 per month year round ... up and down from that depending on the heat of summer or the cold of winter.

Grifter · Post by **Grifter** » 19 Sep 2003, 12:05

what in the hell are you people doing? I spend 40 bucks a month on electrical and my apartment is'nt that much small. I'd say about a 1000 sqft. Even if I doubled the square footage, that would only be 80 bucks. Whatcha doing? Lighting the whole friggin neighborhood? Did'nt your folks teach you to turn lights off when you leave the room? Man! :lol:

Hammer · Post by **Hammer** » 19 Sep 2003, 21:10

it does not just double with square footage - it increases somewhat exponentially...

i also have computers and an aquarium that run 24x7.

some areas of the country also are very highly priced as electricity prices are not controlled - it was deregulated here a few years ago - and prices went way up.

Madrus · Post by **Madrus** » 19 Sep 2003, 22:07

Here in the Midwest they have been deregulating the electric and allowing you to choose from various suppliers and the total cost has been coming down. Competition still brings down prices.

"Never mind that California wouldn’t be in this situation if it weren’t for price caps. Specifically, caps on retail prices, or how much power companies charge their customers. Those amounts were capped in 1996, but guess what wasn’t? Wholesale prices, or what electricity producers charge the power companies.

Yes, producers could charge electricity retailers whatever the market could bear -- and thanks to regulations that discouraged the construction of new power plants, that got to be quite a bit -- but retailers couldn’t pass any of the price hikes on to their customers. The results were predictable: Rolling blackouts. More than $8 billion in state funds spent by the end of May to buy power. And the state’s two largest utilities, Pacific Gas & Electric and Southern California Edison, bankrupt.

What went wrong? In short, state officials didn’t trust the market. Demand outpaced supply because they insulated customers from the beneficial effects high prices would have had on California’s electricity market.

That’s right -- beneficial effects. In a free market unfettered by price caps, the utilities would have started charging their customers more. In response, producers would have begun generating more electricity, customers would have curtailed their electricity use and prices would have dropped." The Heritage Foundation

Hammer · Post by **Hammer** » 20 Sep 2003, 09:52

yeah - big problem is the lack of 'indigenous' power, so they bring it in and get hammered on pricing for importing it. they did not deregulate the whole thing - another idiot move by Davis and his cronies.

look at gasoline though - no regulation at all as far as i know, and we keep hitting 'shortages' that drive the price up. ridiculous. it is even cheaper in l.a. right now it has dropped to 2.219 for a gallon of premium (both of my vehicles use premium) from 2.229 last week. it is all apparently caused by the producers here in ca - retailers just go along with it because of what they are charged. for my part, i drive my motorcycle 95% of the time.

Madrus · Post by **Madrus** » 20 Sep 2003, 11:27

good point steel; California is just digging a bigger and bigger energy "hole" by not developing intrastate producers and primarily relying on conservation efforts to solve their energy needs.

the explanation i have heard from several sources regarding gas prices suggests some of the hig price is due to a distribution problem. lack of refining capacity in various markets, an EPA that forces different blends to meet the pollution criteria in various markets - I have heard that there are 20-30 different blends needed at the present time in the US. Our pollution requirements can't be that varied, can they? And my pet peeve - extremely high federal and state taxation (everything is relative - our taxes are low compared to the socialist EU). Our government makes more profit (100%profit - they have no expense or risk) from gas than the oil companies. An oil company makes less than a nickel profit on a gallon of gas. The same with cigarettes .... but i better stop ranting now

Hammer · Post by **Hammer** » 20 Sep 2003, 20:23

personally, i don't mind what they do to cigarettes... ;)

gasoline is ridiculous, it is something pretty much needed to get by in this country... and imagine we started this country because of taxation without representation...and we still don't really have that.

Softball · Post by **Softball** » 21 Sep 2003, 22:26

We are surely being raked over the coals for gas here in SD. I was in Yuma, AZ over the weekend and regular unleaded gasoline was $1.75/gallon, as opposed to the $2.15/gallon here in San Diego. Gas shortage my ass.

Madrus · Post by **Madrus** » 22 Sep 2003, 09:14

Regular unleaded here in Cincinnati, OH is $1.57 per gallon.

If you want to see how much tax per gallon by state in 2002 you can compare how much tax versus oil company profit per gallon (2-5 cents per gallon):

http://www.energy.ca.gov/gasoline/stati ... _2002.html

Nemisis · Post by **Nemisis** » 22 Sep 2003, 18:15

Ok, I spoke to a couple of you guys about this when the whole electric thing came up and you guys really have it easy when it comes to the price of gas (as you americans call it).

As most of you probably know PETROL (what we call it over here

) is heavily taxed here as are cigarettes, alcohol, food, wages, savings, and just about everything else come to think about it (i'm going off topic here hold on till i get back on track)

anyway Petrol costs about £0.80 pence per litre here thats £3.62 per gallon which is $5.81 to you. So for you to say that $2.29 per gallon or there abouts is dear seems funny to me, but then again different countries different ways of life huh!!

The biggest peeve i have is that you go out to work to get money to pay your rent/mortgage, buy your food, pay your petrol etc, you get taxed on what you earn, you then get taxed on almost anything you buy and if you do become lucky enough to have any left over that can be put in a bank account for a rainy day or a little nest egg or whatever you then get taxed on the money that your saving!!!!

To put if politely you getting ******* every which way even on your savings. really pisses me off!! Rant over.

Have a nice day!

Hammer · Post by **Hammer** » 22 Sep 2003, 20:06

ah yes - good ole european tax rates...

but for those extra taxes you get some things from the govt. that we do not over here...health care that is not subject to the ability of someone to pay - you just get it. govt. stipends for a lot of things... in Germany you get money just for having children... you also get an equal chance at education regardless of you or your parents financial capability.

i think i am mostly correct for most european nations. i also think your overall tax rate is around 45-50% of your income when all is said and done... here we probably range (generally) from 20-30%.

we also are taxed on everything for the most part...

Madrus · Post by **Madrus** » 22 Sep 2003, 20:24

Well of course we have it easier than you do when it comes to gas. In spite of the fact that, adjusted for inflation, our gas prices are nearly the lowest in our history - Americans love to bitch about gas prices.

But keep in mind we do not have the rail and public transportation system that you have so the majority of Americans have to drive. Plus we have a capitalist system that generates much more revenue from income and corporate taxes whereas the EU has socialist economies which do not produce as much income and corporate taxes and therefore rely on VAT, excise, and Petrol taxes to feed their heavily bureaucratic governments plus universal health care and retirement programs.

For instance, IIRC Finland has a top income tax rate of 70% and a sales tax on new cars of over 100%. Denmark is also around 100% (and 180% on commercial vehicles!).

http://www.acea.be/ACEA/20020506Publica ... eIntro.pdf

Lots of EU countries have 17.5 - 25% VAT. What if Americans had to pay an extra $5K on a $20,000 car for VAT?

Madrus · Post by **Madrus** » 22 Sep 2003, 20:41

BTW, I found this on the DOE's website:

Why are California gasoline prices higher and more variable than others?

The State of California operates its own reformulated gasoline program with more stringent requirements than Federally-mandated clean gasolines. In addition to the higher cost of cleaner fuel, there is a combined State and local sales and use tax of 7.25 percent on top of an 18.4 cent-per-gallon Federal excise tax and an 18.0 cent-per-gallon State excise tax.

California prices are more variable than others because there are relatively few supply sources of its unique blend of gasoline outside the State.California refineries need to be running near their fullest capabilities in order to meet the State's fuel demands. If more than one of its refineries experiences operating difficulties at the same time, California's gasoline supply becomes very tight and prices soar. Supplies could be obtained from the Gulf Coast and foreign refineries; however, California's substantial distance from those refineries is such that any unusual increase in demand or reduction in supply results in a large price response in the market before relief supplies can be delivered. The farther away the necessary relief supplies are, the higher and longer the price spike will be.

Additionally, California's recent electricity crisis has created gasoline supply concerns, as refineries and pipelines could be impacted during power interruptions.

Nemisis · Post by **Nemisis** » 23 Sep 2003, 03:44

While i agree that as you say we have "free" medical health and schooling, what you might not realise is that the government funded health and education service in britain as well as the transportation system is all failling to supply the services we pay for!!!

This is not just my political view point criticising the present government (i have no political alliances one party is just as bad or good as the other in my view)

The Health service you might see from over there is on the edge of a crises major operations are delayed by up to a year!! minor ones even more, and not joking here unless your really going to die in the next day or so from whatever health ailment you have, you will have to wait in a LONG list of people to get that much needed operation.

We are very quickly turning to the american system of health over here ie Health insurance and private health care, simply due to the fact that the National Health Service cannot keep up with the demand for health care required, due to very long term under funding by past british governments.

It is now almost normal for most people to have some form of health insurance over here since waiting for an operation that is not seen as critical can lead to a 18 month wait!!! Even the present government has admitted that to get the NHS back on track would take 15-20 years and a lot of heavy investment, but they still are not increasing the funding to do this by the required amount.

The Education system in Britain is almost in the same crisis while not quite as bad as the health service, schools are forced to find alternative methods of funding just to buy the nessesary text books and equipment due to the lack once again of the required funding level. Class sizes are increasing usually about 30 pupils per class or higher due to lack of teachers and available class rooms, this leads to less time being spent on the individual pupil that might require that little extra help.

Transportation in Britain is a joke!! The rail service is an extremely dangerous one, this include the famous london underground(which is run independantly but just as incompitently), with numerouse train crashes over the past 4 years (all with fatal casualties) all caused by lack of maintenance to the rail track and trains that run on them, not to mention the high costs travelling that method and the more than frequent cancelations and almost always late trains.

The centre of towns are congested to nearly the point of grid lock, a lot of town councils are turning to charging you for the pleasure of using the inner city roads that take half an hour to drive a mile in (yes you are quicker walking in some british town centres)and remember we already pay $250 a year for what we call road tax that is supposed to maintan the roads.

Outside of the town centres the main motorways or highways as you call them cannot cope with the volume of traffic that now flows on them.

So while all these free and government funded things might seem like plus points to the outsider which compensates for the high tax rates on almost everything, it requires that the governments of those countries supply LARGE amounts of funding to support them, while the rest of europe seems to have got this balance right (Netherlands, France, Germany and so on) Britain hasn't, the lack of proper funding to these services over the past 40 years has left them now at breaking point.

I honestly think if Britain were populated by Americans there would have been an outcry about this years ago, but most British keep a stiff upper lip (and usually keep it shut in doing so). Americans would not put up with paying for something they are not getting, we do.

Sad but true! Like i said earlier i have no political bias all the things that have happened to these services has happened over 40 years and through many different parties. So you can't blame Tory or Labour independently for something they have both contributed in.

Main culprit is the British public for not complaining enough.

Sorry if i bored you but i think it is an accurate view of Britian today.

Madrus · Post by **Madrus** » 23 Sep 2003, 15:39

Don't get me wrong Barrie; I agree with you completely. I do not see the government's providing of substandard services in an inefficient manner for extremely high taxes as a good thing. Canada is finding out how much a failure universal health care as we see Canadians coming to the US in droves for health care that they cannot get or cannot wait for in their country.

There are significant numbers of Americans who are willing to deceive themselves and American politicians who are more than willing to provide all the "free" services to get their vote. It is a constant battle here to prevent that from happening. And now we have Republicans as well as Democrats spending like crazy and promising "free prescription drugs" blah, blah, blah.

What's that I hear? Gray Davis just signed a bill that gives illegal aliens the ability to attend Community Colleges tuition-free? Didn't California have a 38 billion dollar deficit the last time I heard? Sorry, no knock on Softball or Steel; but what the heck is happening out there?

Hammer · Post by **Hammer** » 24 Sep 2003, 19:37

That guy is such an idiot...but soon...

Nemesis,
We did not say you got what you payed for - just that you payed for it! ;)

I have your solution...move to the U.S.

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