DA!

[Madrus]

Currently we have lost 449 US, British, and other military since the start of hostilities in Iraq in March, 2003. I deeply regret every one of those deaths.

In 2002, Chicago dropped to Number 2 in total murders behind Los Angeles, but remained Number 1 in murder rate.

http://qrc.depaul.edu/djabon/Articles/C ... 030101.htm

Chicago had 645 murders in 2002. I think you would be safer, DA, if you moved from Chicago to Baghdad.

Let's keep this in perspective. This war has gone spectacularly with one of the lowest, if not THE LOWEST military and civilian casualty rates in history. Here is my salute to our President and our military leadership as well as our superb military personnel. Bring them back as soon as possible, but finish the job this time. I have been hearing liberals whine for 10 years about how Bush Sr. should have finished the job the first time. Now that Bush Jr. is trying to finish the job we are hearing the libs whine that we should not be there. Once a lib, always wrong.

[daofcmacg]

I just see it getting worse thats all. Look at the overall picture and the slow progression to a higher level. Yes I am paranoid beyond what I should be, but I call them like I see them and I see bad mojo brewing here. And Greg your right lets get it done, and I salute the Service Men and have great great disdain for that man you call President and I call the stuff underneath the barrel.

By the way Congrats Greg!

DA

[Madrus]

Thanks DA. I respect your right to have your opinion. But IMHO, the facts do not bear your statement that things are slowly progressing to a higher level.

http://lunaville.org/warcasualties/Summary.aspx

November was an especially bad month, but I do not see a progression in these figures. Do you realize that we lost 50,000 troops in Vietnam over about 6 years which works out to over 20 per day while Iraq averages 2 per day? 90% reduction in fatalities?

"The U.S. military has had considerably more success in turning Iraq around than liberals have had in turning the ghettos around with their 40-year 'War on Poverty.' So far, fewer troops have been killed by hostile fire since the end of major combat in Iraq than civilians were murdered in Washington, DC, last year (239 deaths in Iraq compared to 262 murders in DC). How many years has it been since we declared the end of major U.S. combat operations against Marion Barry's regime? How long before we just give up and pull out of that hellish quagmire known as Washington, DC?" --Ann Coulter

[Hudson]

What about the terrorists that flew into the trade towers on september eleventh. I think they were in the wrong country for the wrong reasons too. Personally I believe that's when the gloves came off. Choose you're side and let WWIII, no matter how big, or how small, begin.

And as far as being there for oil or not... I don't care. If the quality of life of the remaining Iraqi person improves at all then it is worth the cost on both sides. If it doesn't and we rape their land for its ritches and they suffer, then bush should hang from the gallows.

I like to think that I support the war for the right reasons. It may be strikingly naive to say this, but sometimes the simple answer is the best. What the h*** makes your freedom worth fighting and dying for, if theirs is not? Freedom is do or die, take everyone with you, leave none behind, damn everyone in the process if we can't.

And you're right. This country is F'ed up. We, as a country, have done some deranged sh*t. Slaughter the Indians that called this land home centuries before we even conceived of it, decimated Vietnam, only after Ho Chi Minh approached an American president about setting up a democratic government like that of France he was basically laughed out of the presidents office. Then when he goes to the communists for help we dump agent orange all over his country. That makes sense. Riiiiiiight. Then we promise protection to the Palestinians and watch them get slaughtered like hogs.

All I can say is I hope that some people are or will be roasting in h*** for these decisions. It's time everyone, on ever side, grow the f*** up, realize we all want peace and prosperity, and work together no matter how hard the process.

But don't get me wrong. I vehemently fall behind the phrase "Don't tread on me." I would not hesitate to support the nuking of a sufficiently powerful and corrupt government, if it were the only option.

[Madrus]

I'll probably be alone in this, but I don't give a rat's a** about Indians being displaced by a stronger culture. The Indians did plenty of slaughtering on their own as their culture and way of life was displaced. The Indians who were here when white settlers moved West were not the same Indians who possessed the lands hundreds of years before and those Indians from hundreds of years before arrived on a land bridge from Asia and slaughtered the indigenous people who were on the North American continent before them. You think the French or English or Persian or Italian or Greek or ... populations of the 17th and 18th centuries were the original occupiers of those countries? No way, they all fought their way up the food chain by exterminating Gauls or Celts or Mesopotamian or Roman or Ancient Greek remnants or civilizations. And it happened on the African and Asian continents also.

So I am not feeling guilty about some Indian population being affected by the settlement of this country. The ones who are still here do pretty well with their casinos. And I try not to judge the past by looking through eyes that are a product of a 21st century culture. If you want to judge the white settlers or military of the 1800's, then put yourself in their shoes first. If I was an Indian, I would kill as many whites as I could when they tried to eliminate me or my culture. If I was a settler, I would be shooting as many Indians as I could who were attacking me and my family. And neither would or should feel guilty about trying to survive.

As for Ho Chi Minh, the guy was a lifelong communist who helped found the French Communist Party, studied in Moscow, trained in Moscow and China, was head of the Indonesian Communist Party and the Vietnamese Workers Party. He never had any intentions of forming a democratic government. He did have one overriding goal, and that was liberation of Vietnam from French (and Western) colonial rule. Meanwhile the US gets sucked into a conflict on the basis of stopping the spread of communism to South Vietnam and/or coming to the aid of the South Vietnamese regime who cultivated an alliance with the US for their own ends, I'm sure. Looking back on it now, and even during, the whole thing got way out of control and thousands of US servicemen paid the price. And BTW, we were also there for the oil - hehehehehe. Yeah, right.

And when did we promise protection to the Palestinians? This was before or after which suicide bombings of the Israeli's? You can't deal with a Palestinian leadership which has sworn to eradicate the state of Israel and fouls up every attempt at a peaceful resolution and does not care about peace for it's very citizens. Israel is fighting for it's life and the Palestinian leadership voids every attempt at peace and you want the US to feel guilty? How about Jordan, which is 80% Palestinian or other middle eastern countries? Shouldn't they feel guilty for not allowing more Palestinians to emigrate to their countries? Nope, only the US should feel guilty.

That situation sounds a lot like the one the US is in versus the Islamic terrorists. We can't rest until every terrorist is eliminated, and Israel can't rest until every Palestinian terrorist is eliminated.

[Nemisis]

Well all i can say about this whole Iraq thing is i am not interested about the should we or shouldn't we be there or done what we did side of it, It was probably a good thing to do in the long run.

What pisses me off is the American and British goverments blatant lies concerning the Supposed and as we know now, non existent weapons of destruction bolloks they made up just to try and "persuade" the average British and American Joe that they were doing the right thing.

There is no way that you are telling me that both goverments intelligence agencies made a complete balls up of there spying techniques and made a mistake about what they thought his capabilities were we all know that they are capable of intercepting any and all forms of electronic information about most countries using modern technology that could pick up all they needed to know just by flying close by in an inteligence gathering plane and by close examination of sattelite photos.

What type of idiots do they think the average person is anyway.

Sorry for the rant on this one but i just hate how governments are run, Sack the lot of them and lets start with a clean slate.

One political party is just as bad as the other one they are all the same and are all after one thing POWER!

Rant over i think i just hate politicians is all and this is just my personal opinion but George W Bush and his little lap dog Tony Blair (and this is how their relation ship is seen by the British public) are one dangerous pair of M****r F*****s

[Hudson]

I had a hard time digging this up. But the jist of it is he asked for AMERICAS aid first. He was thrown out of Woodrow Wilsons office. When he goes to the Communists instead, operation agent orange ensues.

http://www.geocities.com/angmoh_2000/vi ... iminh.html
After living briefly in London, Ho Chi Minh moved to Paris, where he adopted the name Nguyen Ai Quoc (Nguyen the Patriot). During this period, he mastered a number of languages (including English, French, German and Mandarin) and began to write about and debate the issue of Indochinese independence. During the 1919 Versailles Peace Conference, he tried to present an independence plan for Vietnam to American President Woodrow Wilson. Ho was a fouding member of the French Communist Party, which was established in 1920. In 1923, he was summoned to Moscow for training by the Communist International, which later sent him to Canton (Guangzhou), where he founded the Revolutionary Youth League of Vietnam, a precursor to the Indochinese Communist Party.

[Hudson]

http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Oct/10192003 ... 103305.asp

They had gone in the year before to calm fears that Lebanon's civil war could spark a battle engulfing the entire Middle East. The Marines' role was to evacuate Palestinian fighters and prevent an invasion from neighboring Israel.
U.S. diplomats promised the safety of Palestinian families who remained. But after the Marines finished their job and withdrew in 1982, thousands of Palestinians -- largely women, children and the elderly -- were massacred by Israeli-backed Lebanese militia.
"It was three days of absolute butchery," said Robert Dillon, then-U.S. ambassador to Lebanon. The slaughter jeopardized a high-profile initiative by President Reagan to end the Arab-Israeli conflict.

[Madrus]

Then I guess you don't want to hear about the Iraqi Lt. Colonel that confirmed last week that he and his troops were issued biological and chemical weapons to use against an American invasion. They were only supposed to be used on the express order of Saddam. That order never came and the troops chose not to fight for Saddam and not to use those weapons against the Americans. He claims that many weapons were shipped to the Bekaa Valley and Syria.

I guess you also choose to ignore that Saddam, as part of the cessation of hostilities in the Gulf War, admitted to the development and possession of bilogical and chemical weapons of mass destruction and to the facilities devoted to the development of nuclear weapons. His agreement to allow inspection of these facilities and weapons that is the basis for the 10 years of UN inspections that followed. Those inspections were supposed to verify that those facilities were dismantled and the weapons were destroyed. He managed to fool all the Inspector Clouseau's from the UN for 10 years and even managed to have them thrown out of Iraq for a time. This violation of the cessation agreement is IMHO, the main justification for invading Iraq. Extensive underground facilities hid their development. it is a fact that several times Iraq tried to obtain yellowcake ore (a precursor to enriched uranium) from African nations. It is a fact that Saddam used both chemical and biological weapons in the 1980's against Iran and against the Kurds in the north of Iraq. the Clinton administration, including Al Gore and Madeline Albright have publicly acknowledged that Saddam possessed such weapons and was a threat to use them. And there are many documented ties between Saddam's administration and Al Quaeda. Plus a former member of the WMD development team of Saddam has written about the capabilities that Saddam had in the mid 90's.

To accuse the US and UK governments of "blatant lies" is the height of naivete and a deliberate ignorance of the evidence. The evidence is vast and incontrovertable that Saddam had chemical and biological weapons and was on his way to nuclear. And if we had not delayed invading that country for so long and announced our intentions on CNN and the UN to the whole world, he would not have had the chance to ship most of his weapons and capabilities out of Iraq. I hope to God we never find them, but I suspect they are still around out there just waiting to be used by terrorists. If and when they are used, I hope that some of the people who are victims will be the ones who whined about "Saddam did not have WMD; Bush and Blair were liars."

That is what pisses me off. The average person who ignores the facts and complains that Bush and Blair lied to them.

[Hudson]

That I said I'm happy in Iraq. For whatever reason, especially if it improves the lives of the individuals in that country. I'm simply keeping a realistiv view that my country has done it's fair share of F'ed up sh*t. As I said all sides need to start acting civilized, grow up, properly respect each others capacity to inflict death and suffering on each other, and work together towards peace and prosperity. But men (and women) being men (and women) I know that will never happen.

[Grifter]

Now that the issue of whether or not we should be there is seemingly moot, I wonder if democrats, may they rot in hell, have a point. Perhaps its time for Bush, may he rot in hell, to request the UN involvement to lower the American profile in the theatre. Of course, he's pissed the UN off by snubbing his nose at them on more than one occasion and it would seem that even if he asked, they would most likely say no out of spite and political shananigans. Seems we're now damned if we do and damned if don't, which is most likely why he does'nt go back and ask for their help in the rebuilding of Iraq. Bush is saving face. Thoughts?

[Madrus]

My thoughts are "Thank God we have G.W. Bush as President" and "G.W. Bush may turn out to be one of the best presidents also; second only to Ronald Reagan in my lifetime."

The UN? Those stooges sucked off so much of Iraq's oil money during their so-called "inspections" in their Oil-for-food program while Iraqi's were starving and without clean water. The UN is worthless and never accomplishes anything. They will only come in if they get a piece of the action.

Another thought "liberals should rot in hell before they turn this country into one." They seem to hate everything about the US; why don't they just move to Cuba and enjoy all the programs they seem to want, like: national health care, national education system, and a socialist economy instead of those damn capitalists in the US. Or France?

[Nemisis]

Well look what happpens when people drag up old post and bring up old political arguments, I get a hot a flustered under the collar! and get Madrus on my back (NO Raptor no gaydar needed).

Any way all i'll say in reply is that You guys are have far more info on Those weapons of destruction than us brits do cause as far as the British public know there are still no weapons of destruction found out there yet and Blair has takena severs beating over the past months in the TV news and press for lying to the public and one official addmitted to what the papers are calling the sexing up of the evidence aginst Saddam and hi supposed Weapons ie let make it out to be a lot more of a possible threat than it actually is and fom what we are being told the british intelligence basically said that there was a possibility that he had these weapons and the politicians then sexed it up and told the british public that he definitely had them therfore they lied!

So if what you say is tru Madrus then fair enough but the information you are giving me has not been given out to the british public yet.

Enough said topic finished for me!

[daofcmacg]

I am so sorry for bringing this old politcal post back to light. Raptor please forgive me and if you can close this post.

Again Squdmates I am sorry for the inhouse fighting.

DA

[daofcmacg]

Well alrighty then!! How about this. Everyone is right in regards to there opinion and there view upon the facts of U.S. history and what we can do to mess up a situation if we give ourselves even half a chance. This war which has now turned into a rebuilding/conflict for the IRAQI people maybe long over due, but I can't help but point out why IRAQ and why now, why not the PLO or Serbia, why not here at home for that matter this is all about oil and nuthing but the oil and your right madrus NATO always got there hand out looking for something if you want them to help, personally if the Red Curtain were still standing today I seriously think most of Europe would go up in smoke from the sudden overflow of Russian Main Battle Tanks.

I feel deep in my heart if we don't look to the past and go over the mistakes we made then we are doomed to repeat them and IMHOP think we are going to repeat some of those mistakes one way or another, far as technology is concerned at what cost is it worth. Like the old saying goes "The Ends do not justify the Means!".

So ladies and gents there is no right or wrong answer here just problems with impossible solutions. If we would have went left instead of right stood back and watched instead of directly or indirectly become involved then things would have been slightly different. We must remember if we had any influence or not there would have still been issues to deal with we were just unlucky enough to have the influence to make these decisions.

DA

[Madrus]

It isn't my call whether or not this thread stays open, but I don't consider this fighting. I don't come away from reading or posting in this forum with any anger, hate, or negative feelings. I am proud to live in a country and proud to be part of a group of guys that can present opposing views. Look on many other forums and you will see how quickly it gets ugly.

Just let me know when you want to change from politics to race, abortion, or religion so we can explore other fun topics.

hehehe. Just kiiiiidddddiiiiinnnnngggg.

[daofcmacg]

Hmmmmmmmmm and I thought all of those other topics fell under politics. Now I don't understand the Right wing versus Left, conservative and liberal debate. All I know is CAN'T WE ALL GET ALONG IN THE UNITED STATES!!!!

[Grifter]

[in reference to Raptor's most recent post] I agree. This thread should not be shut down so long as people can remain civil. Me? I'm an academic and a humanist. I can't accept the assertion that GW or Reagan are or were good presidents respectively. I'm not really impressed with GW's record to date, but then that's only my opinion.

As far as the UN is concerned, I agree that they are not overly effective or ethical as an organization; however, those flaws could be remedied and the UN could regain its dignity through diplomatic efforts. Frankly, we cannot go at this alone, not because we don't have the resources, but because it will place the world's disgruntled frustrations and crisises at our doorstep. As it is, some argue that we need more soldiers and more money allocated to the rebuilding of Iraq. Our increased presence in Iraqi streets will only set the people against us.

Finally, I firmly believe that it's my civic duty to criticize the governing body of this nation because I love this country. I criticize with the best intentions, in the hopes of making this country a better place to live. I hope to add my voice to the chorus of civic discourse and my disatisfaction ought to be noted and taken into consideration along with everyone elses opinion. Love it or leave it? No, Americans have the right to criticize their government, a right that other countries do not give thier citizens. I will exercise that right in hopes of doing my duty as a conscientious citizen. I support the decision to go to war with Iraq, but I really must object to our way of handling cleanup process.

[daofcmacg]

does anyone have the download for the Key Cards in LoMac, huh anyone!

DA

[Nemisis]

Ok in answer to DA's Question yes i have a DL copy of the Lomac keycard ICQ me if you want it i'll try and find the link and post it, OH and by the way folks, UBI has launch a highres version of this and the PDF manual making it easier to read since the original PDF manual was in a crappy format the Link is on the Lo-Mac site,and so is the lnk for the key card come to think of it.

As for the other rubbish we are discussing in this thread,

DA i was only kidding about the who brought up this old thread thing and myself and Madrus had a right good talk on RW about this as well and it was all good natured i was also kidding about him being on my back even though he might want to get on my back! (Gaydar picks up a contact, PING!)

So as that Gayblade Raptor says :lol: i don't think anyone on here in this thread has taken any offence to what anyone else has said, since i think we all know each other pretty well by now (Gaydar gets strong contact!) to know that we might not agree with the other persons point of view but we still are not going to get nasty with each other , but we all know we can (accidently) shoot them down in a MP game of choice just to release a bit of tension anyway :lol:


As i have said before Great group of guys here having fun OL doing what they enjoy, Glad to have joined this motley crew called WOF and have yet to find a bad apple among them. Couple of nuts in there but no bad apples.

OH nearly forgot! Madrus as we say in Scotland "Ootside NOW! YER TEAS OOT!!"