Possible to get partial or late pushes?

[Bones]

OK, so in terms of DCS. I have the Steam version and I generally have it on all the time so I get DCS updates automatically without me having to do anything.

The last patch update was Oct 20, at least for the Tomcat.

Between Oct 20 and Nov 23 I was flying the Tomcat just fine, my average kill in a 1v1 nose to nose merge guns only fight against AI was 2-3 minutes.

Then suddenly Nov 23 came and the Tomcat just did not feel the same anymore. I went from these quick kills to 8+ minute long stalemate engagements where though mostly offensive, I would lose because I'd run out of gas. It was like suddenly all that thrust power was gone. I used to be able to turn with a bandit and slowly gain angles on him to kill and now in the same situation we just sit there in an endless loop until one of us runs out of gas. When going vertical, I used to be able to accelerate in the climb a bit, if not just be able to sustain energy enough to keep on him until he was forced to come down and now it's like as soon as I put my nose up it starts bleeding airspeed like crazy.

The AI also seems to have changed. Now they seem to prefer going into vertical loops over and over, and with that thrust and acceleration problem I can't stick with them anymore like I used to when they did. Or they go into these endless horizontal turns where the slightest move will bleed my energy and I lose the angle, or we just sit there turning and turning and turning...

But if the patch was Oct 20, why did I not feel any changes until Nov 23? Is it possible to only have some of the changes at first than some later even though the entire patch was on the one day? I just don't get it and it's very frustrating.

v6,
boNes

[Bones]

A friend of mine just ran a test. He noted that using the F-14B that there certainly was something amiss, but flying the same mission in the F-14A in the same way, that everything was fine:

I just tried the same instant action dogfight (Caucasus map, called "Dogfight" hehe), guns only against SU-27 in both the B and the A.

In the B I've had a similar experience as you seem to have had: I ended up in a rate fight with the Flanker, in full burner to maintain best turn rate, with both aircraft neutralizing each other (ending up in almost-head-on-passes) until I ran out of gas.

In the A however I was able to get inside the Flankers turn circle, which caused a more vertical turn fight, in which I gained the upper hand and got a nice guns kill, in not even a third of the time of the first engagement. Maybe I fought differently (I turned TacView off since the latest patch to save precious FPS, because the latest patch stole at least 10 of those from me in exchange for fancy cloud shadows on the water).

Weird. I should have fared way better in the B with its superior engines.

He feels as if ED is passing under the radar "stealth patches" for some time now:

Right now the AI is all over the place. I almost think ED is slipping us unofficial, tiny, "stealth patches" under the counter (when it says: "checking for updates", sometimes that green "health bar" takes longer to move to the right. Also, I seem to notice varying loading times.) . Unfortunately AI seems to be getting worse all the time. Because IMO AI behavior *is* changing. Yesterday I was playing "Hello Ivan" from the Fear the Bones campaign, and I noticed the AI wingman had real trouble maintaining station on my wing, and then he suddenly crashed into me, killing both aircraft instantly. Weird.

I wouldn't be surprised if that is what is happening with the F-14B.

v6,
boNes

[Grifter]

This is using the Beta version, right? Seems to me like ED is dithering with the sim behind the scenes and not telling anyone. Probably introducing these changes as part of the Beta testing. The changes might stay and end up in the next patch's notes, or these changes will mysteriously disappear. Wouldn't be surprised.

[Xpendable]

I highly doubt ED is sending you patches without telling you while it is "checking for updates..." That makes zero sense. What benefit would they have in doing this? The way ED patches are done, they are rarely ever small. A simple code change could result in 100's of mb's of data having to be re-downloaded. Their patching process works by replacing files that are changed. They don't modify individual bytes of the file, they replace the entire file. What is far more likely is they made some undocumented changes that didn't make it into the release notes. It happens. I just don't believe they would be patching in stealth using an entirely different patching process from their regular process to "hide" patches they don't want to tell you about. There's no reason for them to go to that trouble, and would actually make things far more complicated for them.

As for the notion that they must be downloading stealth patches when it takes a long time "checking for updates..." is hogwash. The delayed response time is simply because the server that is being called to check the version number is probably under stress (i.e. being hammered at the time by other clients), and is taking longer to respond. I'm sure if you proxied your traffic using a tool like Wireshark or Charles Proxy, you'd see that this is simply a RESTful inquiry/response that feeds back a JSON response with the current version number(s) and metadata around the current version. I doubt there is anything more there. The updater.exe decides based on the information it gets in that response on whether it needs to download patches or not.

[PanzerMeyer]

Thanks for that post Xpendable. It really explains it well!

[Bones]

Yes it's the Beta version.

Well, after more testing, sure there may be FM changes in the Tomcat, but what I think is more likely is that the AI for bandits have changed. Pretty much every AI bandit I have flown against now flies like a UFO and before it was just the MiG-21. Of course if they fly like a UFO you would never be able to stick with them or sustain energy as before, and hence why I end up running out of gas rather than get a clear offensive advantage. They did mention that they had updated AI, and they made that recent announcement of doing more with it.

But, it has left me feeling like I don't ever want to play against the AI anymore. Dogfights have become boring and frustrating as we go in endless circles until one of us runs out of gas.

v6,
boNes

[Bones]

To test my theory re: AI I went to a dogfight server where you only play against other humans (PvP). Human F-15s and
F-16s. I got 4 of them, and every time I fought them, I did not have a problem with holding energy in turns with them and so on. I clearly
was not flying against UFOs.

Also:

https://forums.eagle.ru/topic/288586-no ... nt-4842989

https://forums.eagle.ru/topic/288123-ai ... nt-4837723

I'm not the only one who noticed. There was another thread that discussed this in more detail and it mysteriously vanished.

v6,
boNes

[Gator]

This is from an email from dcs on 3DEC

"Today we would like to introduce our new AI aircraft Flight Model to you. This new FM, which we have named General Flight Model (GFM), will initially be rolled out across all fighter jets and then step by step to WWII AI aircraft. Note that our Helicopter AI FM is already flying with a similar GFM using Rigid Body Physics, contact model and complex rotor physics. This extensive development is still very much work in progress and we look forward to providing you more details in the new year."

Is this what you're seeing?

[Grifter]

Haven’t had a real chance to play this month due to family/holiday obligations. Encouraging but I’ll believe it when I see it!

[Bones]

This is from an email from dcs on 3DEC

"Today we would like to introduce our new AI aircraft Flight Model to you. This new FM, which we have named General Flight Model (GFM), will initially be rolled out across all fighter jets and then step by step to WWII AI aircraft. Note that our Helicopter AI FM is already flying with a similar GFM using Rigid Body Physics, contact model and complex rotor physics. This extensive development is still very much work in progress and we look forward to providing you more details in the new year."

Is this what you're seeing?

I don;t think so. From what I understand that rollout isn't supposed to happen until next year, or with the next patch. If this is the FM update, then it's terrible. It went from 1 UFO aircraft (MiG-21) to all aircraft.

There have been a few threads on the DCS forums about this where people noticed the same things that I did, and don't feel it right. They generally make a valid point that better AI and realism sure they are all for, but breaking the laws of physics and cheating, they are not.

https://forums.eagle.ru/topic/288123-ai ... nt-4837723

https://forums.eagle.ru/topic/288586-no ... nt-4842989

It's a real issue...

v6,
boNes