Shootings

[Malin]

Both your comments:

Especially by someone who does not know any better

&

if you are indefensible, then you have chosen to be. It is no different than your right to stand on the street corner and wave a sign saying "May the Queen burn in Hell!", or "President Bush is Gay", or "Glaz has a small winkie"

Imply that you are of the opinion that I would have nothing worthwhile to express in relation to this discussion. The fact that you have made these remarks before listening to my thoughts on the matter leads me to believe that you feel your arguments are sound and do not take into account other peoples experiences however relevant they may be.


You talk here about guns, and your right to bear arms. I also have this right, but if I wish to express my right to bear arms then I would do what some of my colleagues have done. Join the armed forces or the police. This is my right, and my choice, made under no pressure or influence of society. The horror to me would be having to exercise my right to bear arms in order to justify my ability to feel safe in my home or working enviroment. By joining the police or armed forces in order to exercise my right to bear arms means that other people would be able judge my ability both physically and mentally in using firearms. If I was found to be mentally unstable and having the right to bear arms means that innocent people would be put in danger then I am more than happy not to carry a weapon knowing that these measures are in place.


All the major world headlines involving gun crime and the slaughter of innocents in the last couple of years have involved individuals of unsound mind having access to firearms. By supporting the UK gun laws I am reducing the chances of my children being gunned down in the school playground by some individual who can walk into a shop and buy a gun purely on the grounds that they are past a certain age and have access to sufficient money to make the purchase.

The fact that an American citizen can commit murder in Washington on a whim (No actual links between the sniper of Al Queda have been proven) using a rifle that can be purchased from any hardware store and the US goverment do not even have the ability to trace who that weapon was sold to is something you should be considering. By all means keep guns, but on the other hand who says you are of sound character to have this right when in every statement you have so far aimed in my direction you have implied you would not listen to the answer.


On the subject of guns and laws controlling gun use. Please feel free to explain to me why you (Americans) feel the need to have weapons for which you would have no use. Hunting rifles, pistols maybe, but what need does anyone outside of the military have for assault rifles, HMG's, Semi automatics and any other military hardware. The days where there was a possibility of America being invaded by another country are long gone and your own military has proven the fact in numerous wars that they have no equal or better, yet you insist on civilians having the right to carry arms which have no use in mind other than to slaughter other human beings.

Malin

[Featherhorse]

Cuz it's fun to shoot stuff. Targets, Tin Cans, Street signs, Squirrels, rabbits, Dogs, Cats, & People of course.
Americans revell in their right to bear arms.
But there are some of us who chose NOT to own guns, because we are aware of the possiblity we'd be out there shooting arseholes with the best of snipers.
We are granted this right by our government Mal, and the gun totin bubbas, and conservative right wingers are firmly entrenched enough that no amount of debate or tragic shootings are gonna change that. Just let it go.

Fethr

[Venom]

I agree with fethr. It is fun to shred targets with an assault rifle. I grew up around the military so I am not all that intimidated with someone walking by be with an assault rifle or HMG. Uniformed or not I consider it that person's decision to heavily arm themselves. And I treat them the same as I would treat an unarmed person. If som1 wants me dead they are welcome to try.
To be honest since I know I am never safe I trust no one, and do my best ot be ready to fight at a moments notice.

[Malin]

Don't get me wrong, I have no objection to people having the right to own a gun and use it to shoot up tincans, targets etc. I also am of the opinion that we shouldn't ban hunting (A big issue in this country). What I find difficult to believe is that there is no control over who can own a gun, or even controls in place so that the authorities know who owns a gun.

What I find sad is the the fact that you yourselves admit you have a problem and yet nothing will be done about it and the only way in which an honest person can feel safe is to "tool" themselves up.

To be honest since I know I am never safe I trust no one, and do my best ot be ready to fight at a moments notice

a few weeks ago some 35 year old Caucasian guy was tracked down and got blown away with a shot gun a few blocks from my house because he told a Spanish guy not to graffiti on the bus stop bench. They never found the killer

America is at the moment trying to give the rest of the world the opinion that there's is the land of the good and free etc. Sadly most of Europe and the world don't want America's brand of freedom as we currently have enough troubles of our own which are in need of resolving and all America tends to be doing is scaring the shit out of the rest of us with it's "Root of all Evil" posturing. (I do note that over 30% of Americans are also worried about their goverments percieved war mongering)

Malin

[Malin]

We had to win our freedoms and rights through war.

Are we talking about something that happened 200 years ago?

Our Constituition prevents the government from taking our right, in Britain, your constitution is your parliament. When they snap their fingers, the subjects of Britain

I think everyone English here would agree that this isn't the case and there is more effective means of demonstrating your lack of faith in the goverment than by using a gun.

"We the people" rule our nation not only by vote, but also by the threat of force. If the government steps over its bounds, we have the power, the absolute physical power to take our government back.

LOL, I think anyone here can tell you that as soon as you tried it you'd end up in jail, you cannot fight a goverment because in the end they will always find something to get you on, look at Al Capone.

Yugoslavia since the end of WWII. Do not think it cant happen again. It can, and it will if the people allow their rights to be taken away.

You don't follow world politics much do you? Look at what is currently happening in the Netherlands and in France if you think that we the common people without the use of guns cannot force the removal of those with facist inclinations.

If a bad guy wants a gun, he will get one regardless of laws. If he cant get a gun because of whatever reason, he will use a knife, baseball-bat, fire, explosives, etc.

Correct, but that brings him down to my level and minimises collateral damage.

You want to protect your family by banning guns. So in other words, when Mr Badguy comes knocking, your going to say, "Stop you cant enter, guns have been banned!" I dont think so. When he points his blackmarket gun at you or your family, then what? You call the police? Nope. The police cant protect you. The police are strictly a reaction force, not a security force. You are your own security.

Almost right, again you obviously don't follow world politics, there is a huge outcry in Europe because of the human rights movement where individuals who have protected themselves from attack and ended up in prison. I'll let Glas expand upon these instances but needless to say they are being resolved. I have a Cavalry sword and numerous knives in my house that I would not hestiate to use on an intruder.

Hunting has nothing to do with freedom, nor does target shooting. Our 2nd Amendment says nothing about either one. The 2nd Amendment reads, "A well-regulated Militia being necassary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

I shall repeat my last statement in my previous post:

The days where there was a possibility of America being invaded by another country are long gone and your own military has proven the fact in numerous wars that they have no equal or better,

Kinda defeats the argument for a militia dosn't it?

Britians crime rate has risen every year. More importantly, so have crimes commited with guns! How can that be? More laws do not stop crime. Laws are only followed by the lawful, you and I, the common citizen/subject.

There is a huge debate concerning this (again tied in with the EEC, The Human Rights Commision and as displayed recently HRH the Prince of Wales) in relation to the decline of society and morales. Additionally to this if you had done some research you would realise that alot of the increasing gun problems within the UK are directly linked to the drug trafficking industry originating out of Jamaca.

You mention the use of violence as the way to resolve your problems, why do you think that the use of force will resolve the problems?

It has been proven again and again that the use of force leads to the application of more force until you end up with everybody dead. Is this how you want the world to be? Yes you can get a gun in this country but the simple fact that you can't just walk in a shop and buy one reduces the "grudge-killings" that you suffer from.

Malin

[Slamhammer]

Grabs Malin and Benn gives both a hug..." god I love disversity"...the fact both of you can engage in these conversation..with out being drug out by a death squard and barried in a shallow grave.tells me somthing...This has been a active and enlighted debate..with all parties showing that they did not crawl out from under a rock...hell smart and can pilot a mech I think I will keep ya....Feathr..come here you been lug..and stop trying to convert..Lancer to your Olklahoma is nirvana campaige.. BH beer for everyone except..Venom...we would not like to be accused of corrupting ..the boy...heres to all...for :salut: great debate.......................


Thank you all <S>

[Malin]

<S> boss man, well it proved the forum needs a little work "page 4 of 3"

As well as getting the feeling:

But at the end of the day I still need a: (higher class of beer drinkers

and no-one ended up in

See ya later all.

Malin

[GlasgowCelts]

As i have said before, we have different opinions on the matter. Which of course is healthy in any democratic society (as we are here in ELH)

Just a couple of points i'd like to touch on tho that you might have misconstrued BB. When you talk about minimizing collateral damage yet we only have a baseball bat and a knife, your forgetting one slight thing. In the US, the chances are the aggresor has a gun (whether he uses it or not), hence your assertion that you have to meet like with like. In the UK however, there is no way whatsoever that your run of the mill housebreaker has a gun. Therefore, a baseball bat or a knife would be more than sufficient. Gun crime in the UK is almost completely drugs related. The irony is that probably most housebreaking in the UK is also drug related, the difference being the housebreakers are your lowlife drug addicts, whereas the drug-related gun crime is the mobsters who bring the shit in and distribute it. Big difference there.

Also, you are taking Malin out of context about the right to defend oneself. The outcry in the UK is the fact that 'more than reasonable' force has been used to subdue a housebreaker. Personally speaking i support the courts decisions in the 2 most high profile cases (Tony Martin and another guy who was recently jailed). There is simply no need to shoot someone or beat them to a pulp because they have broken in to your property but carry no threat to your life, but that is simply my opinion on it. However, i dont doubt that there has been several occasions in the US where someone has also been jailed for shooting someone in the back as they are leaving your premises for example. That is exactly the same scenario as what Malin was talking about so i dont see how you can claim this helps your argument. Of the 2 cases in the UK, Tony Martin had an (unlicensed) gun and in the other one, the killer used a knife i believe. The irony in those 2 cases was that none of the 3 housebreakers involved (2 dead and 1 shot) were carrying firearms. Makes you wonder ;)

Glas

[Buffalo Six]

well I have stayed out of this thread, and to my surprize it has not spun out of control. I guess issues like this are what defines us as Americans. We are very passionate about things like this and as shown defend our rights vigoriously. Add to that the fact that as Gun Owners we are labled as pariah for even wanting to own a firearm by the Left and the news media which is documented as being very Left Biased. So after a while, after getting drug thru the mud so to speak, we drop the hammer on folks who think/decide we are the bad guys in this debate. Almost all the views expressed here are valid. Life in the UK or Europe for that matter is/are very different then here in the US. In my 35 years on this blue ball, I have been robbed 4 times, cleaned out completely, and one of those was at gunpoint. I'm a white guy living in flyover country here in the US (thats Kansas, the part of the country thats most folks dont visit, just fly over in route to other places), so I for one own several firearms. I am also a Hunter. I hunt mostly upland game (phesant, quail, praire chickens) and water fowl along with some deer hunting. For home defense I own 2 handguns and a short barrel (legal 22") 12 gage pump. I will die a happy man if I never have to use them to defend my home or person. But as I said, I have had a gun shoved in my face and robbed.

Malin was saying something about the gov not being able to trace firearms. Right now the anti-gun crowd catch phrase is "ballistic finger printing". This may at some point be valid but as of now is too in-accurant to work. The finger print changes over time and with different ammo loads used other than what the manufacturer uses. I hand load my own (ok my dad hand loads my rounds) so they impart a different finger print over time. Here in my town we have a quad homicide on trial here. Actually there were 5 killed. I wont go into details on it due to it's hidious nature. But it is on the radio for live testamony, so I get to listen to it at work. I listened for over 2 days as the man who does ballistic matching and tool and dye marking indentification testified matching rounds and shell casings found matched the murder weapon. Then I listened to the defense ballistics expert dispute those findings. The prosucuting DA destroyed him on cross but this illustrates the diffacultiies of this kind of thing. I for one am uncomfortable with the Government having too much info on me, wheather it's my CCard info, health records etc.. If given the chance, they always show that they will use it aginst the people to further thier veiws/career so the less the Feds know about my daily life the better I feel.

Also it is said that if you shoot a attacker in the back as he is leaving your house, be sure to drag his ass back inside before calling the cops! (this is a joke guys!)

[Malin]

Voting peacefully removed the "problems", yes you are right (and calling them facist is very harsh, just because a party or idea is right wing does not a make it Nazi). But what would have happened if they did not leave office? What if there was a loyal general that decided to surround the parliament and keep the "facists" in power? Then what, are you going to vote him and his army out of existance??? No, not with stones, pencils, and paper. You need force, and that is something your people cant get.

to make an observation, more western goverments have been brought down by the media (intentionally or otherwise) than have been removed by force.

In reply to your statement, a group of armed individuals bears the risk of being classified as terrorists. For over 40 years a large majority of the Irish have considered the British goverment as "facists" in power and have tried by the use of force to remove the British goverment from Northern Ireland. They havn't succeeded and have only managed to damage what could have been a peaceful process because they have lost respect from the international community.

In Russia following the breakdown of communism didn't the military surround the parliement buildings and try to return communism by the use of force and yet they were defeated by the general populace armed with nothing more than petrol bombs and bricks?

Mal

[GlasgowCelts]

Doc i appreciate this is something you feel strongly about, and i would imagine none of us in the UK have the power or the will to stop you from carrying a gun but its good that we can turn a thread that was getting heated in to a normal discussion and exchange of views, dont you think?

I can well imagine if i was *strikes a few chords on Lancer's guitar* Born in the USA I might feel differently, as you might if you were brought up in a society where guns were something you only see if you decide to involve yourself in that side of the underworld.

That said, i fail to see why guns keep honest people honest. The most recent mass indiscrimate killing in the UK was the massacre of 16 kids and their teacher in a primary school not 50 miles from Glasgow (hence why i feel strongly about this subject). The nutter involved was a legal gun owner with a firearms license. In fact, it was only after this tragedy that the laws in the UK were tightened even further. I doubt VERY much that there has been any legal guns used in a major crime since then and i would be even more surprised if i needed more than my 2 hands to count the number of law abiding citizens who have died as a result of gun crime.

As has been stated before tho, despite the fact our 2 countries seem to have a bond of kinds (political or otherwise), we are 2 completely different societies, each with their own advantages.

Glas

[GlasgowCelts]

Remember tho BB, there is probably more 'nutters' out there who can easily pass themselves off as sane, than there is 'nutters' who are actually certified as insane.

Case in point is the Washington sniper. Despite the fact there were some alarm bells ringing before he started his killing spree, by and large the guy appeared to be fairly 'normal'. And, i would bet, he would have had no problems whatsoever in obtaining a gun legally. This was exactly the same case with Thomas Hamilton who killed the 16 kids. Plausible guy, not exactly a pillar of the community but in no way considered dangerous....then something snapped.

It is impossible to determine someone's future state of mind when selling them firearms, therefore you cannot say with any certainty that a 'nutter' in the US can have no legal access to firearms.

It is good to see tho that we can respect, and even accept others viewpoints without feeling that your own beliefs are threatened. Now what can we start a new discussion on......;)

Glas

[Malin]

How about the British in Northern Ireland? Would that be a hot topic or what?

That is a more dangerous subject than both gun control and the WTC bombings.



Mal

[ELH~Lancer]

The worst part about the 'Dunblane' saga was the fact that Thomas Hamilton should not have held a licence for firearms. A previous search of his home had discovered illegally held firearms. With a criminal record, and the fact he was a known nutter, he should not have been given his licence back. The police screwed up big style on that one. The public out cry was diverted from that mistake and was focused on the gun owning fraternity. The press then did some outstanding BS stories about gun owners. The majority of the British have little experience with firearms and most knowledge comes from TV/film/newspapers. On one hand this is a good thing but it does lead to strange opinions about guns. So with the voice of the people behind them and some good votes riding on it the Govt banned a huge range of weapon types. And the streets of the kingdom became safer.


Well no they didn't. Gun crime has seen a huge increase ever since. I make no case for either side, I have never owned a gun licence, I work with the things all day so they don't interest me on my days off. I do, however, feel that gun crime is not linked with legal ownership and the Govt did a major knee jerk banning them. A nice thought on the guns for self-defence question. In one of the Southern states of America covert carriage of weapons by licenced individuals is allowed. When they allowed this, street crime fell at an impressive rate, sadly, road rage killings rose by an appreciable rate.

We have a saying at work, "Guns don't kill people, its the nut behind the trigger"

[BlackHawk*K]

you know there is something i havnt realy seen mentioned on here all that much and that is some of the other reasons why ppl here in the US have guns. some ppl and its just a guess but i think BB may be one of em (40 of em!) collect guns becuse of their history and the interest they hold. much like ppl and they mech minis and other collectors items. i was just watching a Believe it or Not Tv Show about a guy who collects shrunken heads! im sure there are some end of the world nutters out there that collect up an arsenal, but if the end comes would they be wrong to do so in anycase? anyhow, i realy dont know alot about this subject. i dont have any data about death rates with firearms. i only have the limited life experiance i have, and even though ive never been robed by a gun, i DO know that the low lifes out in there find it realy easy to get one. i know this becuse i knew some of these low lifes... i used to know drug dealers and stuff, and they packed, i mean ALL of them packed. Today it makes me VERY VERY glad i chose a better route for my life to take. but the image of some stupid ass drug dealer pulling his gun out of stash pack makes me concerened about the fact that i dont have a firearm here at the house. but that is a choice the wife and i made. our kids are young and super curious, i would die if an accedint occured here at home. but that does not mean i wont get one eventualy.. i plan to in fact. we had a speed freak try to brake into our house one time while i was away from work. fortunatly my wife scared the hell out of him just as much as he did her.... but i often think back, what if he was one of those with rapest tendacies?? what if since he knew she was in there he decided it was MORE important to brake in? scares the hell out of me. this is what i do know about gun control that i have seen, First off we have here a hunters saftey course that you can go threw very young. it teaches you about guns and their effects and the responcibility behind owning and useing one. i took the course and i would send my kids as well. they do have the registratoin, i looked into it before, but even if i had a gun given to me, it would regiser it anyhow. only becuse i dont intend to do anything ilegal with em. i think i realize now the only guns i will probably get will be inheareted by my father in law who has passed away a year ago. then for me at least, they will be more then guns, becuse i respected this man deeply. anyhow i guess this is a complete laymans view of this subject since like i said i realy dont know crapola about the over all larger subject.

[Hammer]

Lancer,
Exactly,
else we would ban:

alcohol to keep folks from driving drunk and killing others

for that matter, we should probably just ban automobiles altogether as well - that way we can keep the alcohol!

'cause we all know it is the car/alcohol that is doing the killing and maiming - certainly not those wonderfully responsible folks that consume the alcohol and drive the cars....

[BlackHawk*K]

umm maybe im wrong but didnt we try that once? lol i believe it was the stepping stone to the mob's rise in power.

[Hammer]

again, exactly!

[GlasgowCelts]

BB: Re the Nortern Ireland thing, I would not provide input on it one way or another, unless to correct an obvious error by someone. I dont know enough about what has been a very troubled history to comment.

Lancer: We all know about the 'lies, damned lies and statistics' quote, and it very much applies in this instance. The fact of the matter is, your ordinary everyday citizen in the UK can walk the streets safe in the knowledge that if you do get mugged, the probability of it being a gun pulled on you is remote to nil!! Please read my post second before last (i think) about whether there has been more than 10 law abiding citizens in the UK murdered with guns since Dunblane and whether any legal firearms have been used in major crimes since then. Possibly in London the situation is worsening with the threat of Yardies etc, but in Scotland the case remains the same.........gun crime is almost exclusively linked to drugs, end of story.
Also, what you said about Dunblane sums it all up. Even the laws in place at that time failed to stop someone like him, hence the reason the Govt was so hell-bent in tightening them up. There hasnt been another incident like it since. Also, i was aware of him having illegaly held fire-arms, but as far as i am aware he had no criminal record whatsoever. The Police were apparently 'concerned' about him but to the ordinary man in the street, he was an everyday Joe. And a database is not allowed, in current legislation, to hold information about what someone might do. In these days of Human Rights legislation, if they cant prove it, it didnt happen. Why do you think there is so many Al-Qaeda sympathisers floating around the UK. We all know what they would love to do, but that is not enough to boot them from the country or charge them with any offences.

Glas

[Malin]

Oh come on, Malin. It will be fun.

only if you want to see me get angry .

I've lived and worked in London for 17 years and not only used to work by Bishopgate (Yes I was working that Saturday) but I travel into Waterloo and I come through Aldwych by bus from Waterloo every morning.


Malin